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Reasons some languages are harder to learn

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Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#71
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My own pet hypothesis is that it is not just language but our entire culture that creates an O/S for our brain in our early years. "Restraining world view" seems harsh IMHO. Sounds a little elitist to me. But affecting world-view is possibly correct. I suspect the plasticity of the brain can overcome some of the things that the original O/S load affects but it seems to require either a big emotional event or real eff…

> It does beg the question however what are we missing Ability to say that certain objects is far from both speaker and listener for example. Or ability to mention a French coworker in your speech without explicitly mentioning their gender and the whole singular the all together

Look at that tree over there.

I worked with a French person once. They were very good at their job.

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#72

Some examples of language features alien to English speakers: * Conjugated adjectives, as in Japanese. To say "it was delicious", you need to say "it is delicious-ed" ( oishikatta desu ). * Agglutinative languages, like Finnish or Hungarian, where word order is largely irrelevant and conjugations, not word order, determine meaning. * Topic/subject languages, like Japanese, where previously defined context can radical…

The real roadblock with Japanese, in my opinion, is how kanji makes it impossible to absorb new vocabulary through casual reading. We naturally infer the meaning of words from their syntactical and semantic context, but with kanji there's no "name" to hang the inferred meaning to as you read. You can't pronounce it in your head, or out loud. Kanji make it possible to sometimes guess the meaning and pronunciation of a…

While I empathise with your struggles with kanji, the language itself provides a solution: furigana. Japanese is wonderful for having a very close mapping between letters and sounds. These easy to read and pronounce letters are often written above kanji for young children.

Admittedly, once children become teenagers they are expected to be able to read a good amount of everyday kanji words and the use of furigana falls away apart from for unusual readings or less common words, and pretty much entirely for texts aimed at adults. Still, if you're content with quite simple content you can pick up a wonderful amount of language by osmosis with the helping hand of furigana.

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#73
There's a really nice essay by David Moser about why Chinese is so hard to learn for English speakers. It comes down to the hot mess of a writing system:

http://pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html

My Russian professor had an interesting insight about why that language had such a high attrition rate among college learners. It's not possible to say even simple things in a Slavic language without learning much of the grammatical apparatus of noun declensions, verbs of motion, and the perfective/imperfective distinction, all of which are profoundly alien to an English speaker.

So Russian departments end up teaching the material three times through—first years are overwhelmed and try to retain what they can, in second year you are expected to absorb the material, and in third year you're supposed to internalize it. That means you study for three years to reach a level of proficiency other students gain in one.

Sentences like "I took something there with me", for example, are almost comically difficult. Did you go on foot, by vehicle, run, crawl, fly? Was it a habitual action or a one-time thing? Are you stressing the trip or its completion? Did you enter there, climb inside, descend down? Did the trip require overcoming an obstacle? Is the object known to the speaker and listener, known only to the speaker, or unknown? Is it animate and went under its own power? Was it carried in the hands, dragged, or carried on a vehicle?

Meanwhile, fellow students learning German or French can speak proficiently after one year and start reading literature after two. It's a bitter pill.

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#74
post #52

I'm no expert but I find the hypothesis that all languages are basically a wash in terms of complexity... unconvincing. Some examples: 1. Separable verbs in German. My favourite example is "Ich bringe meine Frau (um)". "Umbringen" means "to kill". "Bringen" means, well, "to bring". So you can't start translating German to English until you hear the whole sentence a lot of the time. I believe this has a name in lingui…

> 1. Separable verbs in German. My favourite example is "Ich bringe meine Frau (um)". "Umbringen" means "to kill". "Bringen" means, well, "to bring". So you can't start translating German to English until you hear the whole sentence a lot of the time. I believe this has a name in linguistics. Front loading of information? Something like that?

Well, but you can often translate incomplete German sentences to another SOV language easily.

> 2. Word order. Again in German, "Ich habe meine Frau gebraucht" (I brought my wife). You don't know the verb until the end. For reference, the kill version is the fairly sane "umgebraucht".

Well, it's just a different mental model of incomplete sentences / information. With SOV word order you just infer that the S and O have a relationship and make the nature of the relationship more precise after.

> 3. Many Indo-European languages have strict requirements where words have to agree in case, gender, number and even article (eg in German this changes based on the definite vs the indefinite article). I have trouble believing this doesn't have a cognitive load. This does allow shortcuts. For example, it seems like it's common to omit the subject pronoun because when it's obvious from the verb conjugation.

As you mention, what complex morphology gives can allow someone to waive finding a precise word in a language without that morphology. It's not like these distinctions don't add information on their own, however arbitrary they are.

> 3. Writing system.

I agree that Chinese character-based scripts cognitively heavy, but this is a characteristic of the script, not the language.

> 4. Suffixes to change word meaning also mean you need to keep that word in mind until you hear the end of it. Word order just seems so much more predictable but that could definitely be native English bias.

write vs. writing, writer, rightly, etc.

turn up, turnaround, turner, etc.

There's more nuance to what where these counterpoints are coming from, but I think I've given some food for thought. The points you mention look to me very typical of someone learning a more inflected language.

But consider also the flipside of learning Classical Chinese, which fails to make many distinctions that many languages make. You might, say, struggle with the ambiguity: is the action meant to be in the present, past or future? But perhaps that is not important with respect to the passage (and the language has tools to signify it where important). And consider also that in languages like English where tense needs to be signified, in narrative contexts where tense is not important, we conventionally use the past, but may use the present (historic present) for stylistic effect.

Note on Classical Chinese: of course, it survives only in writing, and beyond Old Chinese it is a separate language from the vernacular, and it is not very friendly to being spoken in the pronunciation of in the modern Chinese languages. But books like the Mencius were dialogues that presumably recorded Old Chinese.

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#75
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My own pet hypothesis is that it is not just language but our entire culture that creates an O/S for our brain in our early years. "Restraining world view" seems harsh IMHO. Sounds a little elitist to me. But affecting world-view is possibly correct. I suspect the plasticity of the brain can overcome some of the things that the original O/S load affects but it seems to require either a big emotional event or real eff…

> It does beg the question however what are we missing Ability to say that certain objects is far from both speaker and listener for example. Or ability to mention a French coworker in your speech without explicitly mentioning their gender and the whole singular the all together

> Ability to say that certain objects is far from both speaker and listener for example.

Non-native here. I don't quite follow. How about: "The object is far away from both of us.".

The concept is there, but maybe not as a single word. Sure, it might be convenient to be able to say "The object it broscht!", but it would just be syntactic sugar. Not a new concept.

Same for french coworker. Not a new concept.

"French person", "Frenchie", "Cheese eating surrender monkey"

Latter two might be SLIGHTLY inappropriate in a working environment.

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#76
post #59
post #52

I'm no expert but I find the hypothesis that all languages are basically a wash in terms of complexity... unconvincing. Some examples: 1. Separable verbs in German. My favourite example is "Ich bringe meine Frau (um)". "Umbringen" means "to kill". "Bringen" means, well, "to bring". So you can't start translating German to English until you hear the whole sentence a lot of the time. I believe this has a name in lingui…

> 2. Word order. Again in German, "Ich habe meine Frau gebraucht" (I brought my wife). You don't know the verb until the end. For reference, the kill version is the fairly sane "umgebraucht". "Ich habe meine Frau gebraucht" -> "I have needed my wife". brauchen -> to need bringen -> to bring; Partizip II: gebracht umbringen -> to kill; Partzip II: umgebracht There is no word "umbrauchen", of which the fictional Partiz…

My bad. I meant (um)gebracht.

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#78
post #23

Some examples of language features alien to English speakers: * Conjugated adjectives, as in Japanese. To say "it was delicious", you need to say "it is delicious-ed" ( oishikatta desu ). * Agglutinative languages, like Finnish or Hungarian, where word order is largely irrelevant and conjugations, not word order, determine meaning. * Topic/subject languages, like Japanese, where previously defined context can radical…

> To say "it was delicious", you need to say "it is delicious-ed" The "desu" isn't strictly necessary. You can just say "oishikatta". With that said, Japanese does have a bunch of curious features, like different words for ordinal numbers depending on what you're counting (e.g. "one, two" can be translated to "hitori, futari" for people, or "ippon, nihon" for long objects, or "ippiki, nihiki" for small animals, etc),…

ippon, nihon, and ippiki, nihiki are numbers with counter units added (different from hitori, futari). Counter units exist in English. It's common to say "I have 600 head of cattle" vs "I have 600 cattle". "600 head of cattle" is exactly the same in Japanese, "牛600頭". The counters in Japanese are also often similar to the way we use the words in English. You don't say "I have 12 wines". You say "I have 12 bottles of wine". "12 bottles of wine" is very similar to "ワイン12本”. I think "5 loaves of bread" also fits. You'd never say "I have 5 breads". You have to say "I have 5 loaves of bread"

I get there's a subtle difference but it's not that far off. We also say "I have 6 meters of rope". "meters" is the counting unit, which is the same concept as all the Japanese counting units.

As for the onomatopoeias, at some point you get used to them and they feel like they fit and you can start to pick them up without having them explained. Even the ones that don't seem like the make a sound, start to make a sound, at least in my mind once I've internalized it.

Not the same but in some sense similar, dogs don't say "bark" but with enough repetition many people perceive "bark" instead of the actual sound the small dog is making.

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#79

Some examples of language features alien to English speakers: * Conjugated adjectives, as in Japanese. To say "it was delicious", you need to say "it is delicious-ed" ( oishikatta desu ). * Agglutinative languages, like Finnish or Hungarian, where word order is largely irrelevant and conjugations, not word order, determine meaning. * Topic/subject languages, like Japanese, where previously defined context can radical…

The real roadblock with Japanese, in my opinion, is how kanji makes it impossible to absorb new vocabulary through casual reading. We naturally infer the meaning of words from their syntactical and semantic context, but with kanji there's no "name" to hang the inferred meaning to as you read. You can't pronounce it in your head, or out loud. Kanji make it possible to sometimes guess the meaning and pronunciation of a…

To be fair, in the English language mentally attaching an unknown sequence of characters to some work-in-progress pronunciation guess can also lead to some serious hilarity.

I suspect that people who grew up with a non-alphabetic script have better "geometry abstraction capabilities" trained into their brains that would make them noticeably more performant in a test involving fantasy glyph memorization/reidentification.

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#80
post #52

I'm no expert but I find the hypothesis that all languages are basically a wash in terms of complexity... unconvincing. Some examples: 1. Separable verbs in German. My favourite example is "Ich bringe meine Frau (um)". "Umbringen" means "to kill". "Bringen" means, well, "to bring". So you can't start translating German to English until you hear the whole sentence a lot of the time. I believe this has a name in lingui…

> Oh and don't tonal Asian languages also not reflect that tone in the written form (genuine question)?

At least in Thai, you can easily know the tone from the written words.

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