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Reasons some languages are harder to learn

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Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#51

Some examples of language features alien to English speakers: * Conjugated adjectives, as in Japanese. To say "it was delicious", you need to say "it is delicious-ed" ( oishikatta desu ). * Agglutinative languages, like Finnish or Hungarian, where word order is largely irrelevant and conjugations, not word order, determine meaning. * Topic/subject languages, like Japanese, where previously defined context can radical…

I always wondered why my Japanese friends taught me the form "X-san oshiri wa suteki desu" rather than "X-san wa oshiriga īdesu" which is what Google Translate suggests for the English version of the sentence in its most natural form.

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#52
I'm no expert but I find the hypothesis that all languages are basically a wash in terms of complexity... unconvincing. Some examples:

1. Separable verbs in German. My favourite example is "Ich bringe meine Frau (um)". "Umbringen" means "to kill". "Bringen" means, well, "to bring". So you can't start translating German to English until you hear the whole sentence a lot of the time. I believe this has a name in linguistics. Front loading of information? Something like that?

2. Word order. Again in German, "Ich habe meine Frau gebraucht" (I brought my wife). You don't know the verb until the end. For reference, the kill version is the fairly sane "umgebraucht".

3. Many Indo-European languages have strict requirements where words have to agree in case, gender, number and even article (eg in German this changes based on the definite vs the indefinite article). I have trouble believing this doesn't have a cognitive load. This does allow shortcuts. For example, it seems like it's common to omit the subject pronoun because when it's obvious from the verb conjugation.

3. Writing system. Asian languages are the poster children for complex writing systems that often don't delineate word boundaries and may have thousands of characters. I think I read once that in Taiwan in high school they have competitions for how quickly you can find a word in a dictionary. Oh and don't tonal Asian languages also not reflect that tone in the written form (genuine question)? Semitic languages are a milder version of this where vowels are typically omitted.

4. Suffixes to change word meaning also mean you need to keep that word in mind until you hear the end of it. Word order just seems so much more predictable but that could definitely be native English bias.

I find it fascinating that through a variety of means a lot of this linguistic cruft disappeared between Old English and Middle English.

English really is the red-headed stepchild of languages. In my experience, no one is the least bit concerned loan words in English whereas in French there's a Ministry dedicated to coming up with French words for foreign concepts to keep French "French".

This is why I find the hypothesis that languages constrain cultures so interesting. If your mindset has shifted to preserving your language (in essence, to resist change), how can that not impact your culture?

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#53
post #12

It's true that alphabets are easy to learn. But, in my opinion, all of this opining about language differences is navel gazing. Human languages are all fundamentally the same. The differences are cosmetic. That's the Chomskyan hypothesis and it seems true to me. > Foreign languages really become hard when they have features that do not appear in your own—things you never imagined you would have to learn. Which is ano…

I think saying all differences are "cosmetic" undersells them a bit.

Sure, having different words for numbers related to different objects doesn't fundamentally break the world, but to someone raised with a concept of a number being a number universally, it's a pretty big conceptual change.

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Grammatical gender, as in a whole lot of European languages “In german, a young lady has no sex, but a turnip has.” Imagine if Twain knew about some of the several-hundred-gender languages…

young lady = (das) Mädchen turnip = (die) Rübe (for those wondering)

Native German speaker:

Many people confuse the grammatical genus (as used in practice in contemporary German) of German words with the biological concept of sex. This is made even more complicated by SJWs who confuse these two unrelated concepts (genus, sex) with their concept of gender.

So, it is better to imagine the genus of German word as something like the "'color' of a word" ("color" in the sense of the "color charge" of quarks).

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#55
post #30

Some examples of language features alien to English speakers: * Conjugated adjectives, as in Japanese. To say "it was delicious", you need to say "it is delicious-ed" ( oishikatta desu ). * Agglutinative languages, like Finnish or Hungarian, where word order is largely irrelevant and conjugations, not word order, determine meaning. * Topic/subject languages, like Japanese, where previously defined context can radical…

> Hungarian, where word order is largely irrelevant Not exactly irrelevant, but very flexible. There are some rules to word order in Hungarian, but you typically rearrange the sentence to emphasize the important part by putting whatever is important in front. For example, if you ask a question, the question word that you expect an answer to always goes in front, "What should I wear?" and the answer should start with…

Something that has stuck with me from a writing class in college (English) was that you should try to start and end sentences with important words. The professor emphasized that you shouldn't try too hard—readability is paramount, and you don't want to mangle the sentence—but where you can manage it, it makes writing more powerful.

It sounds like Hungarian effectively built this into the language, which is super interesting!

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#56
post #12

It's true that alphabets are easy to learn. But, in my opinion, all of this opining about language differences is navel gazing. Human languages are all fundamentally the same. The differences are cosmetic. That's the Chomskyan hypothesis and it seems true to me. > Foreign languages really become hard when they have features that do not appear in your own—things you never imagined you would have to learn. Which is ano…

> All languages are easy to learn if you have to learn them. The people who think "Arabic and Chinese are hard" are people who don't have to learn them, they're doing it as a hobby or for school.

The US State department has the Foreign Service Institute, which is its primary training centre. With-in there they have the School of Language Studies, which teaches more than seventy languages, and over the years/decades it has been found that different language take different amounts of time to become proficient in (on average).

* Danish, Dutch, French, Norwegian, etc, take 24 weeks for an English speaker to learn

* German takes 30 weeks

* Indonesian, Malaysian, Swahili take 36w

* Albanian, Bengali, Bosnian, Polish, Urdu, etc, take 44w

* Arabic, Japanenese, Korean, Cant/Mand Chinese take 88w

See:

* https://www.state.gov/foreign-language-training/

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Service_Institute

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#57
post #38

Have any of you learned any Malay/Indonesian? Fantastically easy. Purely phonetic, simple grammar, not tonal or anything else weird. I seriously think, as an English speaker, it’s easier to learn than German or French or whatever, even though it has no relationship with European languages (unlike Hindi, which is part of the same Indo-European languages... in spite of the “Indo” prefix, there’s no relation). It helps…

That’s basically because Standard Indonesian has been artificially Europeanicised, or so I hear: > In both Malaysia and Indonesia, there is a misguided belief that in order for a language to be able to fulfil the functions of a "national language", it must have a "well-developed" system of grammar. Unfortunately, the only type of grammar that the language planners are usually familiar with is the Eurocentric grammar…

>Malay / Indonesian is one of the world's major languages, with up to two hundred million native speakers. Actually, though, it is not one language, or even two, but a family of languages with about as much internal diversity as the Slavic or Romance language families.

My dad had a gig teaching Indonesian to members of the ADF in the lead up to to their peacekeeping mission in East Timor (INTERFET). Quite logically he taught them Timorese Indonesian, which got him in trouble because they wanted him to teach standard Indonesian.

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#58
post #41
post #12

It's true that alphabets are easy to learn. But, in my opinion, all of this opining about language differences is navel gazing. Human languages are all fundamentally the same. The differences are cosmetic. That's the Chomskyan hypothesis and it seems true to me. > Foreign languages really become hard when they have features that do not appear in your own—things you never imagined you would have to learn. Which is ano…

> All languages are easy to learn if you have to learn them Learning a language is definitely not easy and claiming that learning different languages is same level of effort is outright ridiculous. It’s not to say that one language itself is harder or easier compared to another, it’s a matter of it being different from the one you speak already. > Or all the evidence is baseless speculation that relies on assuming Sa…

Which language are you coming from? Vaguely wondering if I can find a way to concisely frame definite/indefinite in a way that makes its utility to English speakers seem less puzzling.

Edit: oh, Russian? Just wondering. Seen this come up a ton of times with Russian-speakers. For whatever reason it's an especially alien thing coming from that particular language.

Anyway, definite / indefinite is helpful for clarifying whether we're referring to a specific item or a generic item (i.e. any instance of that type of item, doesn't matter which one.)

Hmm, now that I think about it, it seems implicitly clear to me and that limits my ability to creatively explain its utility.

Maybe I should turn this around instead-- could you help me understand why that isn't a way of categorizing things that's employed by Russian-speakers? Why don't you need to make that distinction?

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#59
post #52

I'm no expert but I find the hypothesis that all languages are basically a wash in terms of complexity... unconvincing. Some examples: 1. Separable verbs in German. My favourite example is "Ich bringe meine Frau (um)". "Umbringen" means "to kill". "Bringen" means, well, "to bring". So you can't start translating German to English until you hear the whole sentence a lot of the time. I believe this has a name in lingui…

> 2. Word order. Again in German, "Ich habe meine Frau gebraucht" (I brought my wife). You don't know the verb until the end. For reference, the kill version is the fairly sane "umgebraucht".

"Ich habe meine Frau gebraucht" -> "I have needed my wife".

brauchen -> to need

bringen -> to bring; Partizip II: gebracht

umbringen -> to kill; Partzip II: umgebracht

There is no word "umbrauchen", of which the fictional Partizip II would be "umgebraucht".

Re: Reasons some languages are harder to learn

#60
post #12

It's true that alphabets are easy to learn. But, in my opinion, all of this opining about language differences is navel gazing. Human languages are all fundamentally the same. The differences are cosmetic. That's the Chomskyan hypothesis and it seems true to me. > Foreign languages really become hard when they have features that do not appear in your own—things you never imagined you would have to learn. Which is ano…

The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is that language either influences or constrains the speaker's world view. I don't see the author claiming this: English speakers are perfectly capable of seeing the difference between light blue and dark blue, we just happen to use the same basic word for both. The bit about words not mapping 1:1 across languages is something every learner will run into though, and it's perhaps most obviou…

> English speakers are perfectly capable of seeing the difference between light blue and dark blue, we just happen to use the same basic word for both.

The idea is that English speakers identify light and dark as a variation of the same thing.

Are red and pink the same colour or different colours? What if you call "pink" something like "light red" instead? Are they now classified in your brain as two different things or the same one.

Is dark blue and light blue two colours or one? Does "light blue" become a different colour in a person's brain if it's label as azure as in Italian (etc)?

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azure_(color)

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