Live data from Hacker News

Observing my cellphone switch towers

fabiensanglard.net

51–60 of 137 posts

Re: Observing my cellphone switch towers

#51
post #45

Something like this would make it pretty easy to spot one of those stingray devices, I bet. Cell towers tend to stay put, so mapping out an area would go quick. Were a new 'tower' show up in an odd spot -- there may be shenanigans at hand.

That type of exception analysis is exactly how University of Washington researchers do their stingray hunting. It doesn't take much time monitoring to figure out which towers smell funny:

https://seaglass.cs.washington.edu/

Re: Observing my cellphone switch towers

#52

On a related note, this same mechanism can be used as a fallback for GPS to determine device location. I have worked on an IoT device with builtin SIM in the personal alarm space. Often when a device is indoors no GPS fix can be found, but the GSM module can report all celltower ids in range with signal strengths. These can be used to triangulate the device location. Google has an API for this where you can pass celt…

I believe iOS may not bother involving the GPS if the application requests (or is only granted in iOS 14) approximate location, and there are enough towers in-range to triangulate. Not having to enable the GPS subsystems and get a fix saves a fair amount of battery.

It's the same on Android - there's an "eco" mode of the location subsystem which will only use "passive" location indicators like WiFi and cell towers. In the "high accuracy" mode, GPS* will be activated, but until it lock onto enough satellites, passive location is used as a fallback/best guess.

Re: Observing my cellphone switch towers

#53
At this one industrial customer I visit every week for a full day, my Verizon cell phone date/time time will suddenly change back by 19 years, six months, and some days (I don't have the exact value). This has been going on for almost a year. My pet theory was that law enforcement turned on a stingray nearby back in 2020, it came up with a default date of 1/1/2001, and has been running ever since. Steel building with warehouse plus office space. No one in the building is running one of those cell phone boosters that plug into customer internet and act as a mini tower. My newish pixel 4 and my previous Moto phone both demonstrate the problem. I don't have the fortitude to call Verizon and work through support to get to someone who would understand the problem. Has this happened to anyone else? Any other theories on what it is? (My workaround is to turn off updating date and time from the network)

Re: Observing my cellphone switch towers

#54
post #38

It's quite hilarious seeing bunch of skilled and intelligent hackers being excited regrading process known as "Handover" :) It is well known, and well documented in every single book in subject... Worth to mention that there are 3 types of handovers: - Intra-relations: user can be switched between various cells at same tower. - Intra-relations but with handover to lower technology (let's say when 4g is not available[…

It's quite hilarious seeing a supposedly "skilled and intelligent hacker" (since we're on Hacker News after all) being so excited to recite the article.

Re: Observing my cellphone switch towers

#55
post #53

At this one industrial customer I visit every week for a full day, my Verizon cell phone date/time time will suddenly change back by 19 years, six months, and some days (I don't have the exact value). This has been going on for almost a year. My pet theory was that law enforcement turned on a stingray nearby back in 2020, it came up with a default date of 1/1/2001, and has been running ever since. Steel building with…

Yes, a similar thing used to happen to me just at this one particular bar in Chelsea. But it wasn't off by 19 years, it was off by just an hour, which is worse in a way. That made for some confusing drunken time warps until I figured out the pattern...

Re: Observing my cellphone switch towers

#56

On a related note, this same mechanism can be used as a fallback for GPS to determine device location. I have worked on an IoT device with builtin SIM in the personal alarm space. Often when a device is indoors no GPS fix can be found, but the GSM module can report all celltower ids in range with signal strengths. These can be used to triangulate the device location. Google has an API for this where you can pass celt…

This is also how the original iPhone + iPod Touch got your location without any GPS hardware, so you could see your rough current location on the map after one of the early updates.

Re: Observing my cellphone switch towers

#57

On a related note, this same mechanism can be used as a fallback for GPS to determine device location. I have worked on an IoT device with builtin SIM in the personal alarm space. Often when a device is indoors no GPS fix can be found, but the GSM module can report all celltower ids in range with signal strengths. These can be used to triangulate the device location. Google has an API for this where you can pass celt…

> I have worked on an IoT device with builtin SIM in the personal alarm space

Are there any resources to that project? Comercial or free?

Re: Observing my cellphone switch towers

#58
post #53

At this one industrial customer I visit every week for a full day, my Verizon cell phone date/time time will suddenly change back by 19 years, six months, and some days (I don't have the exact value). This has been going on for almost a year. My pet theory was that law enforcement turned on a stingray nearby back in 2020, it came up with a default date of 1/1/2001, and has been running ever since. Steel building with…

It happened to me. 1 hour off. It was related to DST. I missed a meeting because of this. Since then I disable "automatic time from network" on my new phones and have a casio watch. I thought the tower was misconfigured, why do you suppose it's a stingray?

Re: Observing my cellphone switch towers

#59

On a related note, this same mechanism can be used as a fallback for GPS to determine device location. I have worked on an IoT device with builtin SIM in the personal alarm space. Often when a device is indoors no GPS fix can be found, but the GSM module can report all celltower ids in range with signal strengths. These can be used to triangulate the device location. Google has an API for this where you can pass celt…

Originally, that's what the distinction between the two location permissions on Android was about. ACCESS_COARSE_LOCATION was based on cell ids and wifi networks, and ACCESS_FINE_LOCATION used GPS. In modern Android versions I believe this is no longer true as it uses all the sources either way but intentionally degrades accuracy for apps that only have ACCESS_COARSE_LOCATION.
Post reply on HN