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Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

nytimes.com

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Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#911

Post by _nosewings_ »

fl0wenol wrote: post #774
_nosewings_ wrote: post #573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mistrust runs in both directions (although the timbre is different). I believe that the CDC has had nothing but the best of intentions throughout the pandemic, but it's clear that they don't really trust US citizens enough to say what they really think. They see us through the lens of management; e.g., "How do we manage these people?" Now, it's perhaps inevitable that they would use that lens, but it seems like i…

I think that, considering the mandate of the CDC, a certain amount of cynical understanding of the average American in its messaging is the only practical thing to do. That's a really tough line to take, and I do not envy the PR guys that have to negotiate it. You may not like this, but what it boils down to (as you indicated) is that unless you can improve the average American through education or cultural shift, yo…

It's also worth pointing out that, in a world where the Web is so pervasive, being honest (and, in particular, developing a reputation for being honest) has substantial advantages. Conspiracy theories and general suspicion spread extremely easily these days. If you ask the average American about the CDC today, I guarantee you a lot of them will mention the fact that the CDC initially said masks were unnecessary, and that they have since admitted that they were lying to protect supplies for healthcare workers.

Does that mean that being honest is necessarily always the best thing to do? I'm not sure. It's worth considering. But I suspect that it will take a while for that kind of understanding to make headway in the higher levels of government.

(This goes with the caveat that people and organizations who simply lie all the time can get away with it. Basically, you either have to live firmly in reality, or you have to sell a version of the real world that's been thoroughly modified in order to conform to some vision. Living mostly in reality while occasionally lying is becoming an untenable strategy.)

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#912

Post by dguaraglia »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #438
dguaraglia wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, I understand your point, but as someone who follows the conspiratorial world passively, I can tell you the whole 'but they told you masks were useless' thing is a post-facto rationalization to gain some common ground with the less conspiratorial people. In reality, the usual suspects were pushing conspiracy theories about the CDC even before they determined masks were useful. A famous conspiracy peddler famously…

> I can tell you the whole 'but they told you masks were useless' thing is a post-facto rationalization to gain some common ground with the less conspiratorial people. So is the post-facto realization of "we knew masks work, we just didn't want the people to grab all the supply".

As I explained in another post, originally the consensus was that only N95 masks were somewhat effective. There were no studies on the effectiveness of other masks.

Recommending people use masks could've given people a false sense of security in people and probably acted against more effective measures such as social distancing and self-quarantining of people with symptoms matching those of Covid-19 ('well, I know I have a cough, but I'll just wear a mask and it'll be fine').

Recommending people use the only masks we knew to somewhat work - N95s - would've created a huge problem for hospitals that already were having issues procuring PPE to protect the professionals who were dealing with Covid-19 patients.

Basically, there was no reason for the CDC to recommend masks. Again, there's no need for some nefarious explanation.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#913

Post by dguaraglia »

skocznymroczny wrote: post #438
dguaraglia wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meh, I understand your point, but as someone who follows the conspiratorial world passively, I can tell you the whole 'but they told you masks were useless' thing is a post-facto rationalization to gain some common ground with the less conspiratorial people. In reality, the usual suspects were pushing conspiracy theories about the CDC even before they determined masks were useful. A famous conspiracy peddler famously…

> I can tell you the whole 'but they told you masks were useless' thing is a post-facto rationalization to gain some common ground with the less conspiratorial people. So is the post-facto realization of "we knew masks work, we just didn't want the people to grab all the supply".

That's an oversimplification. The first thing to consider is that there's two types of masks:

* N95 masks

* Everything else

We knew N95 masks worked because that's what professionals use in hospitals. Unfortunately, there was a shortage of PPE so telling people to buy them would put them in direct competition with professionals treating very sick patients. In April 2020 we were looking at a really bleak scenario so there was a very strong incentive to keep professionals alive even if it came at the expense of some citizens (think: doomsday scenario).

We also had no idea whether 'everything else' helped at all. Recommending non-N95 use might have given people a false sense of security that might have played against more effective measures such as extreme social distancing and self-quarantining of people with symptoms.

As knowledge improved, guidance changed. Nothing crazy to see here.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#914

Post by tjs8rj »

HWR_14 wrote: post #894
stolenmerch wrote: post #859

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the mask that does harm. It's the temptation by authorities to make blanket mandates that can easily encroach too far in an effort to cover as many scenarios as possible for legal purposes. It's not a conspiracy theory, it's just in their best interests to make it as easy as possible to interpret and enforce. It's also not at all cut-and-dried what a "public space" is, so that's a bitter argument that will b…

You've said that a fine-tuned mask mandate is too hard to write and enforce. You didn't address the underlying question of what the harm of a mask mandate is. Like, suppose I grant that it's difficult, and 80% of the time isn't needed. My question is then "and who cares?" My insurance isn't needed a far greater percentage of the time, nor is my wearing a seatbelt. What I'm getting at is if it were just a permanent la…

Why not a mandate to wear 2 masks? Or a mandate that you should wear surgical gloves everywhere (non latex for the allergic of course)? Don’t you realize how many lives could be saved with these minor inconveniences? What’s the harm?

Why not a mandate to require wearing a jacket out in the winter? Not only could you injure yourself, but you put others at risk if they have drive through the harsh conditions to save you if frostbite gets you - and most wear their jacket out anyways when it’s so cold, so what’s the harm?

While we’re at it: perhaps we make owning too much alcohol illegal. Getting too drunk is widely considered best to avoid (it sucks to throw up!), so no harm done, and you wouldn’t be able to harm yourself or others with dangerous intoxication levels. No harm done right?

How about we just mandate washing hands after the bathroom - it’s pretty gross and think of all the sickness it causes, and there’s really no inconvenience with the sick right there and all. Where’s the harm?

These all lie on a spectrum. Why not ban cars? Why not require toothbrushing? Why not requiring people to take the vaccine (if it’s safe for their situation)? Why not require saying hello to people you pass on the right side of the sidewalk? Why not mandate snapping your fingers and doing jazz hands to get others attention when someone is about to step in gum? Why not mandate wearing your shirt inside out each Wednesday in order to slightly prolong the life of your clothing and thereby save planetary resources for future generations?

Just because something isn’t that inconvenient (by your standards nonetheless) doesn’t justify the state mandating it and implicitly enforcing it with the threat of imprisonment.

Should you go to jail for not wearing a mask for flu season? That’s why it shouldn’t be a mandate: because the state has not right to coerce people with the threat of violence for innane actions no matter how harmless the act may be.

If you don’t wear a mask for flu season (or any other regular disease we vaccinate against and is part of regular life), does the govt fine you? And if you don’t pay that fine presumably they take you to jail?

Should people go to jail for not wearing a mask for the flu? If not, then there shouldn’t be a mask mandate for it - even if you think there’s no harm.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#915

Post by thrwhizzle »

garmaine wrote: post #313
thrwhizzle wrote: post #240

For some people the goalposts are moving faster than the speed of light. The goal was to flatten the curve. Remember that? Flatten. The. Curve. Is the curve not flat? How much flatter do you want it to be before returning to normal life? Do you want literally 0.000% risk?

Yes, I want the virus eliminated.

Stay inside or wear an N95. The rest of us are returning to life.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#916

Post by thrwhizzle »

paul_f wrote: post #879
infoseek12 wrote: post #270

I hope my thinking on this is overly pessimistic but I think wearing masks is going to be perhaps the biggest lightning rod in America for a while. It’s going to act as a proxy issue for many other sociopolitical and psychological issues that will be channeled into this conflict. I think the perhaps the best advice is entirely cliche. We are going to need to respect other people’s choices and try to be as patient and…

The reason for the contention is because it is not simply one side wearing masks and the other side not. It is one side wearing masks and demanding the other side do as well.

That’s progressivism in a nutshell. It’s not just that these people have an opinion, but that all dissenting opinions must be eradicated.

It’s particularly amusing on masks because of the endless talk of “follow the science.” I guess science is only to be followed when it fits the existing worldview. Now that the CDC is changing course it’s “we need to independently review this.”

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#917

Post by thrwhizzle »

ceejayoz wrote: post #606
josephcsible wrote: post #254

I find it interesting that the people who screamed "trust/listen to the CDC!" the loudest when the CDC's position was "everyone wear your mask and stay home as much as you can" are now the ones looking hardest for reasons to ignore/downplay/criticize the CDC's guidance.

One must evaluate the consequences of not following a particular piece of advice. If masks work, and you don’t wear one, you are potentially killing people and worsening the pandemic. If they aren’t needed, and you do wear one anyways, no harm has been done.

> you are potentially killing people

No, you absolutely are not killing people. This is absurd alarmist propaganda designed to guilt people into acting a certain way.

> If they aren’t needed, and you do wear one anyways, no harm has been done.

This is a particularly insidious argument. First, you’re required to agree to your first point about killing people. Second, you’re required to agree that compelled mask wearing has no harm.

Neither of these statements are true.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#918

Post by wrycoder »

walrus01 wrote: post #433
andreilys wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The CDC/surgeon general recommended not wearing masks at the beginning of the pandemic, while Silicon Valley was way ahead of the curve (meanwhile hit pieces were posted by journalists with an axe to grind saying they we’re overreacting). So yes it has lost its credibility.

They specifically recommended not wearing N95 masks, which were very scarce and in limited supply at the beginning of the pandemic. With the goal of maintaining the very limited supply for medical personnel, while cargo planes moved around the globe and production ramped up.

They still are.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#919

Post by juanani »

serf wrote: post #602
MomoXenosaga wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Americans are very patriotic. Singing the national anthem and waving the flag is second nature. I don't think a conspiracy is needed: every opportunity to show how great America is will be used.

>Americans are very patriotic. Singing the national anthem and waving the flag is second nature. I'm pretty sick of these kind of nation-based generalizations. They're never as true as the person pretends they are, and they're usually just thinnly-veiled hate speech of various types. Generalizing other human beings by what country they were given membership to -- usually uncontrolled by birth, by the way -- is about…

I think the criticism is valid, especially from its own citizens. What I found most bizarre is how kids are trained/required/mandated to pledge allegiance to the flag EVERY day without even knowing what they are actually doing. 30minutes later as the lesson unfolds we hear of how atrocious those Nazi Germans were- how brainwashed the Japs were, condemning them as animals unworthy of life. You question it for a sec but 'Praise the Supreme Leader' comes on over the speakers so you jump again with your hand across the heart and join the rest of the group with Praise.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#920

Post by snazz »

jdhn wrote: post #686
coffeefirst wrote: post #649

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, I walked down the street last night without a mask and almost everyone I crossed paths with wasn't wearing one either. This would have been unthinkable yesterday.

Really? That's wild to me. I haven't worn a mask outside since the pandemic began.

Suburbs and rural areas differ greatly from major cities in this regard.
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