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Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B

reuters.com

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Re: Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B

#41

Post by inglor_cz »

baybal2 wrote: post #40
inglor_cz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The picture of silicon industry that you paint is very far from reality. Neither Taiwan nor South Korea are third world countries and baking top chips isn't the same as sewing cotton T-shirts or gathering strawberries under the scorching sun. Instead of "cheaper labor", you need top talent and very high quality equipment. That top talent collects very good salaries. If chip production was just a matter of money, both…

> That top talent collects very good salaries. Semiconductor engineers salaries in Taiwan could've been as low as $26k-$28k USD back in 2007-2009. Multi-year long PhD "interships" can be unpaid, or completely minimally so. A chance for an average semi process engineer graduate to survive to doing real RnD was close to 80-100 to 1.

I wonder what the situation looks like today. Probably better, because losing senior engineers in a situation when the field has shrunk to Samsung, TSMC and Intel, would be a huge pain.

Re: Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B

#42

Post by baybal2 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #41
baybal2 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That top talent collects very good salaries. Semiconductor engineers salaries in Taiwan could've been as low as $26k-$28k USD back in 2007-2009. Multi-year long PhD "interships" can be unpaid, or completely minimally so. A chance for an average semi process engineer graduate to survive to doing real RnD was close to 80-100 to 1.

I wonder what the situation looks like today. Probably better, because losing senior engineers in a situation when the field has shrunk to Samsung, TSMC and Intel, would be a huge pain.

TSMC's salaries have doubled, but that only means that an engineer with 5-7 years experience gets $43k-$58k.

The rest of the industry is still around $34k-$45k

That lags behind the wage growth in the rest of Taiwan.

Re: Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B

#43

Post by imtringued »

baybal2 wrote: post #33
ithkuil wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two related questions: 1. Would it thus cost the same to operate such a fab in the US? 2. Why did the US outsourced the semiconductor fabrication in the first place? Was it more labour intensive in the past?

1. Labour-wise probably 3-4 times the Taiwan, but labour cost of fabs is microscopic in comparison to everything else. Taiwan does not have dramatically lower taxes than US, but there is something particular to how working capital is accounted which will make for a double digit difference in the in TW vs. US. Third is supplies. Even before the semi moving to Asia, US fabs had to import a big portion of their supplies…

>1. Labour-wise probably 3-4 times the Taiwan, but labour cost of fabs is microscopic in comparison to everything else.

Building a fab requires labor, a lot of it.

Re: Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B

#44

Post by csomar »

throwaway4good wrote: post #34
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #21

This is not just some pork-barrel politics of bribing a company to stay in a given country. S Korea will view this similarly to Taiwan - their chip fabs are existential to their country and state. The USA is becoming more isolationist - it is nearly oil-independent, so it's signalling pulling out of the middle east (deals with Iran etc). But it is not silicon-independent. So S Korea and Taiwan are totally dependent o…

That is a very American perspective on things. Hundreds of thousands of US troops are stationed in Germany, Japan, Korea here 75 years after the end of the second world war. Do you think we would like them to stay for another decade? Our politicians may not be in a position to say so, but we would really like our land to be free of foreign troops. As would any other nation.

I don't think so.

> German Chancellor opposes US troop withdrawal plan

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/german-chancellor-opposes-us...

Without having a powerful army, Europe is just an order from being invaded by Russia.

Re: Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B

#45

Post by threeseed »

throwaway4good wrote: post #34
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #21

This is not just some pork-barrel politics of bribing a company to stay in a given country. S Korea will view this similarly to Taiwan - their chip fabs are existential to their country and state. The USA is becoming more isolationist - it is nearly oil-independent, so it's signalling pulling out of the middle east (deals with Iran etc). But it is not silicon-independent. So S Korea and Taiwan are totally dependent o…

That is a very American perspective on things. Hundreds of thousands of US troops are stationed in Germany, Japan, Korea here 75 years after the end of the second world war. Do you think we would like them to stay for another decade? Our politicians may not be in a position to say so, but we would really like our land to be free of foreign troops. As would any other nation.

Curious where you do live since you exclusively submit pro-CCP links.

Re: Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B

#46

Post by baybal2 »

imtringued wrote: post #43
baybal2 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Labour-wise probably 3-4 times the Taiwan, but labour cost of fabs is microscopic in comparison to everything else. Taiwan does not have dramatically lower taxes than US, but there is something particular to how working capital is accounted which will make for a double digit difference in the in TW vs. US. Third is supplies. Even before the semi moving to Asia, US fabs had to import a big portion of their supplies…

>1. Labour-wise probably 3-4 times the Taiwan, but labour cost of fabs is microscopic in comparison to everything else. Building a fab requires labor, a lot of it.

There are only 2-3 construction companies globally who build factories as complex as modern semi fabs.

Imagine, where they get their workers? They import them all from their home countries.

Re: Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B

#47

Post by ithkuil »

baybal2 wrote: post #46
imtringued wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>1. Labour-wise probably 3-4 times the Taiwan, but labour cost of fabs is microscopic in comparison to everything else. Building a fab requires labor, a lot of it.

There are only 2-3 construction companies globally who build factories as complex as modern semi fabs. Imagine, where they get their workers? They import them all from their home countries.

What are their home countries? Sorry I could do my own research, but since you made a comment that implied you had a piece of information at hand, I feel I may just get it easier this way.

Re: Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B

#48

Post by kwere »

csomar wrote: post #44
throwaway4good wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very American perspective on things. Hundreds of thousands of US troops are stationed in Germany, Japan, Korea here 75 years after the end of the second world war. Do you think we would like them to stay for another decade? Our politicians may not be in a position to say so, but we would really like our land to be free of foreign troops. As would any other nation.

I don't think so. > German Chancellor opposes US troop withdrawal plan https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/german-chancellor-opposes-us... Without having a powerful army, Europe is just an order from being invaded by Russia.

thats silly

Re: Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B

#49

Post by [deleted] »

baybal2 wrote: post #42
inglor_cz wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder what the situation looks like today. Probably better, because losing senior engineers in a situation when the field has shrunk to Samsung, TSMC and Intel, would be a huge pain.

TSMC's salaries have doubled, but that only means that an engineer with 5-7 years experience gets $43k-$58k. The rest of the industry is still around $34k-$45k That lags behind the wage growth in the rest of Taiwan.

[deleted]

Re: Samsung boosts non-memory chip investment to $151B

#50

Post by [deleted] »

threeseed wrote: post #45
throwaway4good wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a very American perspective on things. Hundreds of thousands of US troops are stationed in Germany, Japan, Korea here 75 years after the end of the second world war. Do you think we would like them to stay for another decade? Our politicians may not be in a position to say so, but we would really like our land to be free of foreign troops. As would any other nation.

Curious where you do live since you exclusively submit pro-CCP links.

[deleted]
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