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MicroFPGA – A coming revolution in small electronics (2019) [video]

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Re: MicroFPGA – A coming revolution in small electronics (2019) [video]

#11
post #9

This talk struck me as conflicting in a sort of have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too kind of way. The wrinkles part[1] summarizes a lot of what this individual is advocating. Paraphrasing (with equivalent liberal handwaving of details as the talk does): I want to write FPGA code like any other high-level programming language ( but quickly dismiss that the hard part of developing native HDL is in fact that it's fundamentally…

FPGA evangelists like this really need a reality check. Programming in RTL is not easy, and it's not really a skill that most people need, so it doesn't make a lot of sense as an educational tool.

The "killer app" for hobbyist FPGAs might be some sort of "SoC builder" tool that lets you build a specific microcontroller around a few high-performance cores, and then program it like software.

But don't worry. Since 2000, mainstream FPGA programming has been right around the corner.

Re: MicroFPGA – A coming revolution in small electronics (2019) [video]

#13
post #7

There is substantial complexity being swept under the rug here. Interesting talk but I remain skeptical. Anyone got stats on how FPGA ecosystems have fared vs. MCUs over chipageddon? From a cursory search it seems: 1. There are very few PMOD suppliers 2. They do extremely low volume. So low, in fact, it appears there is simply ~no demand. Therefore, good luck hiring and scaling a team that is familiar with this stuff…

> Anyone got stats on how FPGA ecosystems have fared vs. MCUs over chipageddon? No data I can offer as such, but anecdote from several suppliers who integrate some big name FPGAs into their products. They've seen supply dry up like other chips, causing several months of delays to lead times. It's not "zero supply", but a significant reduction in supply. The vendor-specific toolchains and supply chain security issues…

Bitstream encryption is okay, but someone still has yet to make an FPGA that is truly secure. As far as I know, bitstream encryption on the Xilinx Ultrascale+ devices has been broken, so there isn't a lot of protection there against sophisticated actors.

Re: MicroFPGA – A coming revolution in small electronics (2019) [video]

#14

The talk mentioned a number of small flag boards. Can someone recommended one of them to get started playing with fpgas ?

Haven't gotten very far yet but TinyFpga BX was easy to get set up and running "LED blink" which is the hardware version of hello world. I've used microcontrollers since forever and want to expand my options.

Re: MicroFPGA – A coming revolution in small electronics (2019) [video]

#15

As a (former) FPGA developer, this revolution has been coming for a while, and I'm still waiting. Unfortunately, the programming model actually makes things really difficult for people who think in a software frame of mind. High-level synthesis gets part of the way, but not for low-level peripherals. PMODs are good for university/hobby projects with FPGAs, though, and I'm glad the bar is getting lower and lower. FPGA…

I think it's closer than most people might think. I suspect this is largely because there seems to be a wide gulf between most hardware and software hackers (i.e. they don't talk much and tend to throw things over the wall to each other) and FPGAs require you to have a foot in both disciplines. You're right that the mindset required is a hurdle but once I got over that (I'm primarily a software person and it only took the better part of an afternoon), I've been finding it pretty straightforward. I'm struggling more with dusting off my digital logic design skills... I'll get there, just need to get back in practice.

The current state of the open source tool chain is looking pretty reasonable (covering the development life-cycle with yosys/nextpnr/iverilog/verilator/etc) and a few FPGA families having been reverse engineered (the ones I find the most interesting are also the furthest along: the ice40 and ECP5) so you can buy/build open devices and use them with open tooling today. Granted, the devices to choose from are at the low end of the universe of FPGAs out there (i.e. The one part of his talk that I think is off base is replacing microcontrollers/SoCs with FPGAs in most scenarios. At any given process node, the specialized device (i.e. a processor) should be able to crush the generalized one (i.e. FPGA) every time in terms of cost, raw performance and perf/watt and it would likely take more than the current ~2-3 process node delta to overcome that. I don't look at an FPGA as being an either/or proposition: use a microcontroller/SoC for what they're good at in conjunction with an FPGA for what it's good at where the application warrants it. Sure, if you need a tiny bit of software control throw a soft core in there and save the hassle of adding a micro. But don't try to replace a hard core with a soft one just because you can.[1]

[1] Two cases where exceptions seem to be obvious and make sense: - New/experimental ISAs like RISC-V where you can't readily/affordably source CPUs in the open source world yet. - Emulators mainly because the ISA you need is typically at least effectively dead. Any devices still available aren't often good fits for what you're trying to accomplish.

Re: MicroFPGA – A coming revolution in small electronics (2019) [video]

#16
post #9

This talk struck me as conflicting in a sort of have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too kind of way. The wrinkles part[1] summarizes a lot of what this individual is advocating. Paraphrasing (with equivalent liberal handwaving of details as the talk does): I want to write FPGA code like any other high-level programming language ( but quickly dismiss that the hard part of developing native HDL is in fact that it's fundamentally…

FPGA evangelists like this really need a reality check. Programming in RTL is not easy, and it's not really a skill that most people need, so it doesn't make a lot of sense as an educational tool. The "killer app" for hobbyist FPGAs might be some sort of "SoC builder" tool that lets you build a specific microcontroller around a few high-performance cores, and then program it like software. But don't worry. Since 2000…

The SoC builder you describe might be the MiSTer project for console hardware emulation. But even then, the number of people who develop verilog for that project is rather tiny.

However, it's the first platform that has gotten me, a long time software developer, to really look into how it works. As in, I've been working through verilog tutorials, etc. and formulating a project to build on it. Compare to when I first bought a Xilinx FPGA dev board some 20 years ago, I found that I had no idea what to do with it, and there were not many resources to learn from compared to today. I don't think it's going to be mainstream soon, but there's definitely been some progress.

Re: MicroFPGA – A coming revolution in small electronics (2019) [video]

#17

As a (former) FPGA developer, this revolution has been coming for a while, and I'm still waiting. Unfortunately, the programming model actually makes things really difficult for people who think in a software frame of mind. High-level synthesis gets part of the way, but not for low-level peripherals. PMODs are good for university/hobby projects with FPGAs, though, and I'm glad the bar is getting lower and lower. FPGA…

Not to mention the tools are shit and synthesis takes a long time. If you thought c++ compilers are slow just try using fpga tools.

Re: MicroFPGA – A coming revolution in small electronics (2019) [video]

#18

The talk mentioned a number of small flag boards. Can someone recommended one of them to get started playing with fpgas ?

Here is a cheap board but with no peripherals: https://www.tindie.com/products/tinyvision_ai/upduino-v30-lo...

Re: MicroFPGA – A coming revolution in small electronics (2019) [video]

#19
post #17

As a (former) FPGA developer, this revolution has been coming for a while, and I'm still waiting. Unfortunately, the programming model actually makes things really difficult for people who think in a software frame of mind. High-level synthesis gets part of the way, but not for low-level peripherals. PMODs are good for university/hobby projects with FPGAs, though, and I'm glad the bar is getting lower and lower. FPGA…

Not to mention the tools are shit and synthesis takes a long time. If you thought c++ compilers are slow just try using fpga tools.

The tools are awful and software people don't know how good they have it. However, the tools also do a ton of optimization for you, and so it's somewhat justified that they take a long time to run.
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