Live data from Hacker News

China lands rover on Mars

bbc.com

311–320 of 359 posts

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#311
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"were taken" suggests they had no say in the matter, which is not true at least in the case of many. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun#Surrender_to...

I think the phrase has several interpretations. The most basic is conveyance without judgement of human motives. To the extent that high value workers knew that they were treasure to be looted they might have decided that the US was a least worse option.

> To the extent that high value workers knew that they were treasure to be looted they might have decided that the US was a least worse option.

Yes, that lines up with von Braun's account of his motivations.

> We knew that we had created a new means of warfare, and the question as to what nation, to what victorious nation we were willing to entrust this brainchild of ours was a moral decision more than anything else. We wanted to see the world spared another conflict such as Germany had just been through, and we felt that only by surrendering such a weapon to people who are guided not by the laws of materialism but by Christianity and humanity could such an assurance to the world be best secured.

I'm not particularly convinced by this man's praise of America and talk of Christianity, I think he was brown-nosing just a little bit... but it does seem clear he preferred America to the Soviets.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#312

It seems pretty silly to get all up in arms about copying other peoples' stuff. That's how humanity has innovated throughout the ages: Copy what works and innovate on top of it. None of our inventions arise from a vacuum. Cars are still as wide as Roman chariots for good reason. Power transfer uses the same base principles as were in play during the dawn of steam engines and before. Energy conversion has been an iter…

The problem is IP theft hurts novel research, since illegal knock-off makers don't have to recoup their R&D investments.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may have an unorthodox opinion about this, but I believe our primary goal should be to propagate life rather than to search for it. Sooner or later, we will need to expand our horizons as a species. When that time comes, we will benefit greatly from a long period of study regarding the forms of earthly life that can potentially survive elsewhere. To me, finding evidence of past life would be fascinating and groundb…

That's what the spanish did with the native americans About 90% died as a result. If the objective was to propagate life, they definitely failed

The Spanish knew Native Americans (humans) existed in the New World, and actively persecuted and enslaved them.

This is a poor comparison.

Have we found and enslaved humans on Mars?

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#314

I'm a Chinese guy and I don't like this at all. Here's some Chinese perspective: 1. The CNSA is severely underfunded in recent years, to the extent that a considerable amount of space tech graduates went directly into other more "lucrative" fields such as the IT industry. 2. This landing operation was not announced beforehand. This is a bit unusual, when compared to the past operations, e. g. the first manned space f…

Chinese here. hmm, last year when tianwen-1 was launched they said they will land sometime in the first quarter of 2021. They didn't announce a specific date because this is the first time we sent a probe to mars and they need to gather detailed data of mars to ensure a good landing. For example, high definition scan of the landing area and weather patterns. There are many systems in production use for the first time. For example, deep space communication (we never sent a probe this far). Or mars geo-positioning system (How does the probe know where its located in space with relation to mar's surface, how does it know when and where to release the lander to ensure it lands on the target). I am sure they need to gather data and validate these systems. This usually is a full mission itself. So I don't think its surprising that once all the research and validation is done can they announce a date for landing.

As for secrecy. I believe it comes mostly from CNSA's lack of confidence. This is the first time they ever sent something this far and they are attempt to land all in one go. Its daunting to think all the systems that have to work right on the first try. If I were them, I would be unconfident as well. I think they are trying to keep the expectation in check, not wanting to hype the thing. Give them the breathing room if they fail.

Yes, CNSA has strong political pressure to not fail. That's due to: 1) public support for the country continue to spend money on sending fireworks to the sky and 2) public confidence in country's system. But it doesn't mean failures are not tolerated. For example, the long march 5 rocket failed during development, and resulted in 3 year delay in the program and pushed back all the launch missions, like tianwen-1, chang'e5. change5 was supposed to launch in 2018, and it sat in the hanger for 2 years. The chang'e team didn't even know what to work on. But the rocket team got support. Learn from failures, troubleshoot, improve processes. I am sure if tianwen-1 failed, the team will get support. They will learn, and try again. I think the political pressure is not all terrible in healthy dose. It ensures people are working carefully, thinking fully, creating processes and methods, to ensure stuff gets done. Without political pressure, you will see more "corruption" and "bureaucracy".

Also think about what the news will be if china space missions did fail.

tianwen has been in the works for a decade now, they didn't start this recently and time it to ccp's 100th anniversary. The launch in 2020 was because the mars launch window. ccp is saying many years now that they support the space endeavor and what china to progress in science and tech. Support for CNSA only got stronger in recent years.

As for money. Pay is a issue in China for scientists and researchers in general. Especially, in all of the state-owned sectors and public institutions, not just space. Your front line workers will leave when pressure and money are not in balance. Until no one is there working for you. So at some point leaders will realize its not sustainable. And given the political goal of improving science, research and tech in china, pay is going to be a central problem needs to be tackled.

Lastly, I feel like regardless of politics, we should be proud of this moment. 2200 years after 屈原 stared at the stars and wrote the poem 问天,we built a spacecraft landed on another planet, bring Chinese characters to it for the first time in history. 遂古之初,谁传道之?上下未形,何由考之?Does it not have certain romance to it?

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#315
post #300
post #244

Weird that people get upset by this. I wonder how anyone complaining about "copying" feel about software patents. Honestly, I didn't even know about this mission until now. Good for China. I like "monuments" that countries engage in. They're not new. This is what Apollo was too. Better this than an F-35. If bananas have taught us anything, it's that monocultures are bad (reinforced by the various COVID vaccines I mig…

I am very anti-CCP and try to be vocal about it (my sister no longer lives there). However I don't mind that China copies stuff, my biggest issue is how asymmetric their commercial policies are. Actually, pretty much any policy they have is very anti non Han Chinese If China had any flavour of democracy I'd be much more supportive, my views intersect with many different aspects of Chinese culture I wish my country wo…

As a han chinese, I am curious to learn what policy is very anti-non han Chinese? What to hear from your perspective.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#316

I'm a Chinese guy and I don't like this at all. Here's some Chinese perspective: 1. The CNSA is severely underfunded in recent years, to the extent that a considerable amount of space tech graduates went directly into other more "lucrative" fields such as the IT industry. 2. This landing operation was not announced beforehand. This is a bit unusual, when compared to the past operations, e. g. the first manned space f…

Sorry but I don't think you do respect "the engineers and scientists who made the marvel achievement" if the only thing that you are able to get out of this is as a publicity stunt to please the CCP. It is not an understatement for me to say that I abhor the US empire as a whole and their destructive effects on the sovereignty of the larger world. However, when I'm reading about a NASA project, I don't have the knee…

This country is a pure, violent dictatorship that imprisons more journalists and political opponents than anywhere else on earth, that is effecting ethnical k cleansing within its borders and that is aggressively looking to expend itself (Taiwan, after just being done with suppressing the independent government of Hong Kong).

I'm sorry if people think about a bit more than something that will have tiny to no effect on their life quality in their lifetime. Especially for someone who is Chinese.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans wouldn't have started the war without loans from the US or help from companies like IBM. So it's not so much as stealing, but rather trying to claw back some of the "investment" when the war machinery started to collapse.

Yeah, this is complete nonsense. The science behind rockets were already being worked on long before WW2 or even the first expansion of territory of the Third Reich beyond the borders set at the closing of WW1. It's like when people gave credit to Hitler for infrastructure projects such as the Autobahns which were already in progress before he took office.

I didn't say that only Germans had this technology. They have been doing a heavy research though and they didn't have to worry about human rights abuse and so on. It was valuable enough so that it was worth for the US to launch Operation Paperclip.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#318
post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just a numbers game (though as Stalin said - quantity does have a quality all of it's own). Life is rarely that simple - there are also sociological/societal causes plus the required surrounding infrastructure. China has made dramatic leaps in technological capability but they still can't make a good competitive jet engine and they've been pouring resources into that for literally decades. Even if you have t…

I’d be more inclined to quote and think in terms of Brooks than Stalin since the latter was speaking to tanks iirc, and the former to something more akin to scientists: “adding manpower to a late software project makes it later.” The US probably also suffers from a surfeit of “scientists” as the Thiel theory would have it, just not as bad of a problem as China. https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/peter-thiel/

Indeed that is probably a better analogy.

You also have to consider culture as well, some cultures tend towards innovation more than others - which I guess fundamentally is how 'free' people are to try things and whether it's top down control or not.

Innovation has many fathers.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#319

Didn't happen until we have pictures. Sorry but I don't make the rules.

Deepfakes have invalidated this statement

Probably true. Even so, I found it remarkable that the very first thing the Lunar lander that China sent to the moon did was send a picture of the place where it landed. Same with the second one that had a rover. And yet the Mars one, more than 24 hours later, hasn't produced a single image?

What makes this story even weirder is if the Chinese are lying about the successful landing, why? And how would they walk that back when no further data came from the rover?

In about 4 days it looks like HiRISE will be in a good position to image the landing area where they landed and so we will get a picture, one way or another.

Post reply on HN