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Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#301

Post by intricatedetail »

growse wrote: post #106
intricatedetail wrote: post #80

That's where my taxes will go. And I have to pay almost a grand a month for private healthcare because of incompetent NHS. Maybe I should move to Wales to get some of my money back.

> That's where my taxes will go. The welfare state already receives the largest fraction of your taxes. Personally, I'm in favour of things that make the welfare state more cost-effective. > And I have to pay almost a grand a month for private healthcare because of incompetent NHS. Maybe I should move to Wales to get some of my money back. You don't have to, you choose to.

No, I have to. The treatment is not available on NHS and I would be dead without it.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#302

Post by _rpd »

waheoo wrote: post #97
_rpd wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, these ‘tests’ are documenting how people respond to a lottery windfall. They have nothing to do with UBI.

Isn't that what ubi should feel like? Humans have evolved and adapted so well to this planet the amount of resources we extract and roduce far outpace the resources our bodies require. There is literally not enough work to go around so we have to make it up. If we gave up the facade I can imagine it would feel like winning the lottery and it should.

You don’t plan your life around lottery windfalls. There’s no structural change.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#303

Post by bradlys »

alephu5 wrote: post #255
chii wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'm not saying the deserve to be poor, but they cannot be rich - and at best, society can keep them alive and provide the minimal, necessary sustenance for survival. While they wait for technological improvements to cure them of their illness (if such tech comes to pass). What would be a viable alternative? If this had happened in the jungle pre-historic times, they'd just be dead. So is it not an improvement?

Some of the richest people in the world do no work at all. Their parents give them an immense fortune, which is moved around by employees in such a way that earns in a day what most people get in a year. They consume to their heart's content, without ever having to actually work. Breed, die, repeat.

Indeed.

The person above clearly doesn’t value the lives of the those who are unable to work like those who can. Thus, why they think giving them the littlest as they can is fine. After all, we as a society are only mildly capable of being better than a pack of wild animals. It says a lot about how this person views others, themselves, and humanity in general. Overall, they believe humanity has no hope or worthiness of existence.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#304

Post by LordDragonfang »

mycologos wrote: post #117
kebman wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The laws are like that, because someone feels that it's not in their interest that people actually get out of poverty. The logic behind that interest is simple. You can't make people dependent on you if you simultaneously give them the tools to achieve independence. And these guys love dependent people, because it gives them power. However this attitude is ruining most Western societies.

There's a weird chicken-and-egg quality to these arguments where the pro-state party wants to expand benefits, the anti-state party wants to limit them, and we end up at this equilibrium where benefits are good enough for some people to cobble together lives based on them, but not good enough for most of those people to build better lives and get off them. I think it's overly simplistic to put all of the blame on one…

I think it's disingenuous to categorize the parties as "pro-" and "anti-" state, when the "anti-state" parties generally contain all the nationalists, supporters of the police state, and those who are willing to increase state military expenditures (and at least in the US's case, increasing government subsidies for their own constituents).

It's pretty clear that "anti-state" in this context actually means opposition exclusively to policies that help the poor and hinder exploitation by the rich.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#305

Post by growse »

intricatedetail wrote: post #301
growse wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's where my taxes will go. The welfare state already receives the largest fraction of your taxes. Personally, I'm in favour of things that make the welfare state more cost-effective. > And I have to pay almost a grand a month for private healthcare because of incompetent NHS. Maybe I should move to Wales to get some of my money back. You don't have to, you choose to.

No, I have to. The treatment is not available on NHS and I would be dead without it.

I sympathise. Do you think the reason the treatment isn't available on the NHS is incompetence?

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#306

Post by enkid »

zozbot234 wrote: post #163
enkid wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Senators from West Virginia do not represent the mainstream Democrat views, so let's not cherry pick an example that ended over a decade ago. Instead, let's have a substantive conversation about policy. What specific policies are you referring to as NIMBY?

> let's have a substantive conversation about policy Right, that's what this thread is for. Is there anyone in the "mainstream Democrat" area who actually supports UBI? Who took the step to actually mail COVID relief checks to people with few if any strings attached, Republicans or Democrats?

This has nothing to do with my question, and is suggesting that Republicans sent out more stimulus than Democrats when we passed bipartisan bills for stimulus checks under both Republican and Democrat administration. Republicans have continually taken steps to do things like limit unemployment benefits that Democrats have fought for.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#307

Post by enkid »

ryukafalz wrote: post #181
enkid wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Senators from West Virginia do not represent the mainstream Democrat views, so let's not cherry pick an example that ended over a decade ago. Instead, let's have a substantive conversation about policy. What specific policies are you referring to as NIMBY?

Not GP, but: single-family-exclusive zoning for one, which props up home values and is the norm in almost all US suburbs. Who benefits when home prices are high? Who benefits when they're affordable?

Biden is purposing giving tax breaks to cities that stop this practice.[0] How is does this support the other poster's argument?

[0] https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/nation/2021/04/14/zon...

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#308

Post by benhurmarcel »

jxidjhdhdhdhfhf wrote: post #187
GordonS wrote: post #9

I'm going to assume it won't be "for life", but will instead be for some fixed period, such as 1 or 2 years. Scotland has been proposing doing a similar experiment too. But I'm not sure what these very small scale experiments are meant to tell us, especially since several such experiments have already been done. I can't help but be cynical and think this is governments offering platitudes to those in favour of UBI, r…

Realistically, you also need to simultaneously test out the extra taxes to pay for the UBI as well so that you can measure the full economic effect.

Exactly, to test properly the test subjects would need to have their taxes increased accordingly.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#309

Post by benhurmarcel »

akyu wrote: post #8

The 'universal' aspect of UBI is critical, and many of the attempts to test UBI seem to miss this completely. Call it something else in that case.

The funding aspect is also critical, yet none of the tests include it. Of course the results of handing out money are positive, now what happens when participants have to pay for it through additional taxes?

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#310

Post by benhurmarcel »

nmca wrote: post #104

Can anyone point me to a clear description of what we should expect UBI to do to prices? I definitely worry that it will simply increase rent & other necessities, but I of course don't know.

It is obviously very dependent on how it is funded, through additional taxes or printing money.
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