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Old electric cars are a raw material of the future

economist.com

61–70 of 113 posts

Re: Old electric cars are a raw material of the future

#61

Lithium is a valuable resource. EV batteries have lots of it. Therefore EV batteries are valuable even after they stop working. Lithium is valuable because extracting it from naturally occurring salt deposits is a lot of work. These salt deposits are mostly not Lithium. We are talking trace amounts here. To extract it, you have to process vast amounts of brine. Boil of the water, separate it from other materials, etc…

> Lithium is a valuable resource. EV batteries have lots of it. Therefore EV batteries are valuable even after they stop working.

A Tesla battery weighs about 500 kg and has about 10kg of Lithium (2%). The Lithium is worth about $130, whereas the battery costs more than $10,000. It's difficult to extract the trace elements of lithium from the thousands of individual cells honeycombed together in the battery, so there is no known way of getting at that Lithium via processes that are even comparable to the value of the lithium recovered. That's why no one does it.

A car, on the other hand, is 55% steel by weight, and there are relatively straightforward ways of getting that steel (no, the car is not "melted down". The steel components are melted after they are removed from the car). That's why steel in cars is recycled but Lithium in batteries is not.

The issue with recycling is the cost of extraction -- yes, catalytic convertors and old computers contain trace elements like platinum (maybe $2 per catalytic convertor) but extracting it is far too expensive. So merely the presence of an expensive element in a manufactured good does not mean it is economic to extract the element. In the vast majority of situations, it's not.

Re: Old electric cars are a raw material of the future

#62
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW: the metal components of lithium batteries (especially cobalt) tend to be the economically limiting resources, not the lithium itself. But the point is valid: batteries are indeed harder to recycle than bulk steel, but relative to the cost of extracting new materials recycling is far more effective economically. Also: it's not like EVs don't have steel chassis. It's (very roughly) the engine block and transmissi…

It actually is that many vehicles don't have a steel chassis. The Model Y for instance has an aluminum chassis to save weight. There even other materials such as Carbon Fiber used in some high end vehicle.

The rear underbody of the Y is aluminum but it still has a steel chassis. Aluminum can never fully replace steel because it lacks the strength and rigidity.

Regardless, aluminum is expensive to extract and refine, requiring a tremendous amount of energy. In terms of cost, on average aluminum is more expensive than steel.

Re: Old electric cars are a raw material of the future

#63
post #38
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had always assumed that when a lithium battery didn't work any more, the lithium was somehow "depleted", or had been charged chemically somehow?

Matter cannot be created nor destroyed. And elemental conversion is a big deal - usually involving nuclear fission or fusion. Batteries do become depleted but the lithium never disappears, I guess simply put a reverse potential is no longer able to reverse the battery equation back to the energy storing state. Presumably because there is some third reservoir state that a potential cannot reverse (without delving into…

> Matter cannot be created nor destroyed.

It certainly can, E=mc^2. But it's an incredible amount of energy for how much matter you get.

Re: Old electric cars are a raw material of the future

#64
post #35

Lithium is a valuable resource. EV batteries have lots of it. Therefore EV batteries are valuable even after they stop working. Lithium is valuable because extracting it from naturally occurring salt deposits is a lot of work. These salt deposits are mostly not Lithium. We are talking trace amounts here. To extract it, you have to process vast amounts of brine. Boil of the water, separate it from other materials, etc…

I had always assumed that when a lithium battery didn't work any more, the lithium was somehow "depleted", or had been charged chemically somehow?

As others have said, matter doesn't change.

As I understand it, lithium crystals form inside the battery and eventually short the battery out.

The lithium moves between the anode and cathode to release/store energy. I think when it's locked up in a crystal it isn't free to move and reduces the battery capacity as well.

Re: Old electric cars are a raw material of the future

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a process that is trivially reversed. If it's trivial, shouldn't lithium recycling have been profitable from the moment we started making lithium batteries?

I think they mean trivial compared to processing raw ore. The general assumption is that you are seeing the normal delay effects or inertia of the economy. Capital is already invested in mining and ore processing. Recycling needs to appear economically worthwhile for a long enough period for investors to grow interested and take the plunge in this new direction.

Processing ore is easier, because you can run tons of ore through an industrial process, and not have to dismantle microscopic pieces of each battery

Re: Old electric cars are a raw material of the future

#66
post #41
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had always assumed that when a lithium battery didn't work any more, the lithium was somehow "depleted", or had been charged chemically somehow?

Outside of nuclear reactions, elements are not created or destroyed. What happens in old batteries is the physical structure of the lithium metal is damaged so it does not function as well as a battery, but you can separate out the lithium from the old battery, melt it down and reform it into a new battery (or whatever else you want to do with lithium.)

Lithium ion batteries don't contain lithium metal. The lithium is always in the +1 oxidation state.

Re: Old electric cars are a raw material of the future

#67
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lithium is an element how can it be deleted? If Lithium is chemically changed what prevents it being chemically changed back? Batteries are sealed, if material does not leave than all the components used to make it are still inside the battery.

> If Lithium is chemically changed what prevents it being chemically changed back? Thermodynamics. It is also tremendously difficult to get your gasoline back after you burned it, or to un-cook an egg. It is not difficult to recover lithium from a battery, but in general do not assume that physical processes are easily reversed.

The energy you get from burning gasoline is about as much as the energy cost of creating it. It's not a complex organism like an egg.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/turning-carbon-di...

The only reason it's not done is because already made gasoline is cheaper.

Re: Old electric cars are a raw material of the future

#68
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The nitrogen in our DNA, the calcium in our teeth, the iron in our blood, the carbon in our apple pies were made in the interiors of collapsing stars. We are made of star stuff." —Carl Sagan

FWIW: Sagan was poetic but the intuition turns out to have been wrong. Models are still not super convincing, but supernovae alone aren't enough to explain the abundance of heavy elements. A big chunk of the rare earth nuclei we apply in industry today seem likely to be tiny remnants of neutron stars that were thrown off in a merger event with another neutron star or black hole.

Huh? Are humans made of heavy elements?

Re: Old electric cars are a raw material of the future

#69
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given the rate at which these electric arc furnaces convert electricity into heat already, I don't think that a few hundred gigajoule extra from a random battery pack is going to matter all that much.

Also, I expect that an industry that deals with removing eleventy seven airbags to keep the children safe can handle main battery removal.

Battery explosions are common in waste management facilities. It's a problem.

Re: Old electric cars are a raw material of the future

#70
Another raw material source are the catalytic converters [1] of the exhaust system. Thieves are targeting them, and there are "shops" where you can "donate" your converter, get a free emulator instead, and receive money. Which, of course, is bad for environment.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalytic_converter

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