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Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#291

Post by cm2187 »

toast0 wrote: post #251
cm2187 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d argue what is happening in the US is already a country wide test. People are taking the benefits rather than going to work for marginally more. It is not a good outcome for society. And high benefits countries like France know that very well. Lots of harder job openings there are never filled even though the country has a permanent large unemployment. I like the idea of UBI on paper but I feel it is counterproduc…

UBI is supposed to be universal. Under UBI the choice would be get the 'free money' and also work or just get the 'free money'. Under unemployment insurance, you generally can't keep getting benefits when you are working, so it's not the same choice. This is a challenge with a lot of benefits programs; the change in income often doesn't seem to justify the change in labor. If you get the same UBI payment regardless o…

That’s not the point. The point is that you have a basic revenue doing nothing, and only a marginally higher revenue if you work. How you segment these revenues isn’t the problem.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#292

Post by jscholes »

gandalfian wrote: post #40

In practice the UK already pays the price for a universal basic income. Most poor people get some sort of tax credit and/or housing benefit. What we don't do is allow people to use it to rise out of poverty. A disabled lady thought saving some of her disability was the responsible thing to do, despite further impoverishing herself, once she built up some savings she was prosecuted for fraudently claiming benefits whi…

> A disabled lady thought saving some of her disability was the responsible thing to do, despite further impoverishing herself, once she built up some savings she was prosecuted for fraudently claiming benefits while having savings.

I don't know the specific case you're referencing, and it's possible that they were charged with fraud in relation to a benefit which does come with a savings/income cap. However, the two main disability-related benefits in the UK (Disability Living Allowance and Personal Independence Payment) are paid regardless of personal wealth. I don't disagree with the general gist of your comment, and as I say it's likely that the person was claiming additional benefits where your assets are taken into account.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#293

Post by Dudeman112 »

emteycz wrote: post #225
Dudeman112 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be all for the 3rd paragraph. I'm a programmer living in a first world country (spent the first two and a half decades of my life in a third world shit hole) . I have a modicum of financial responsibility. This means before I reach my 40s I'll have more than enough to live indefinitely off my investments. While gaining money. I am not that smart. I am not incredibly hard working. And yet with less than 20 yea…

There aren't any financial and governmental systems sustaining you, it's you offering what the market wants and can't get enough of. It may be luck in your case, it was calculated choice in my case; most people would be able to make the choice if they really cared to (and sure, let's offer welfare to those who couldn't possibly make this choice). Help other people get in your position or donate your money, but don't…

>There aren't any financial and governmental systems sustaining you, it's you offering what the market wants and can't get enough of

I use public utilities like streets, the NHS, and a stocks and shares account that I won't pay taxes on gains when I start living off it.

The main thing that will allow me to not work is having a certain amount of money that is making me money.

If I were to have a kid they would be financially independent too, simply by inheriting my wealth (as long as they were financially responsible).

Just having money is enough to generate income without having to ever work in your life.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#294

Post by Dudeman112 »

imtringued wrote: post #280
Dudeman112 wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be all for the 3rd paragraph. I'm a programmer living in a first world country (spent the first two and a half decades of my life in a third world shit hole) . I have a modicum of financial responsibility. This means before I reach my 40s I'll have more than enough to live indefinitely off my investments. While gaining money. I am not that smart. I am not incredibly hard working. And yet with less than 20 yea…

>There is something deeply wrong with the financial and governamental systems if they can sustain me like that but they can't sustain most of the population. No, that just means there are a lot of people below your living standard who are willing to work for you, in exchange for the resources you have accumulated over your life. You are also owning machines that make it possible to sustain yourself and some of the la…

>No, that just means there are a lot of people below your living standard who are willing to work for you, in exchange for the resources you have accumulated over your life.

This doesn't bother you at all? Do note that if I planned to have a descendant they wouldn't have to work either (my financial independence is relying on an income instead of having so much money that I couldn't spend it in my lifetime)

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#295

Post by sokoloff »

Dudeman112 wrote: post #294
imtringued wrote: post #280

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is something deeply wrong with the financial and governamental systems if they can sustain me like that but they can't sustain most of the population. No, that just means there are a lot of people below your living standard who are willing to work for you, in exchange for the resources you have accumulated over your life. You are also owning machines that make it possible to sustain yourself and some of the la…

>No, that just means there are a lot of people below your living standard who are willing to work for you, in exchange for the resources you have accumulated over your life. This doesn't bother you at all? Do note that if I planned to have a descendant they wouldn't have to work either (my financial independence is relying on an income instead of having so much money that I couldn't spend it in my lifetime)

I think you saving for the future rather than immediately consuming 100% or more of the value you produce is laudable and starting your descendants, if any, with the fruits of your under-consumption is therefore fine.

You could spend it all in your lifetime; you’re just choosing not to.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#296

Post by atc »

te_chris wrote: post #156
pbronez wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think it’s honestly that sophisticated and malicious? Public policy is hard. Adjusting benefits appropriately as people climb out of poverty is a known challenge. It’s called a “welfare trap” and has its own Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_trap

Yes, it absolutely is that sophisticated and malicious. Have you seen the political environment in the UK?

Do not confuse the political environment with the media interpretation of public policies.

Read something other than The Guardian or BBC.

Thanks.

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#298

Post by LatteLazy »

mc32 wrote: post #262
LatteLazy wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't we spent the last decade bemoaning the lack of moderate inflation? Plus the primary issue with inflation is that it hurts people at the bottom, so UBI offsets that inherently. As for the money, I am brit so I only know the British numbers. We spend about 300bn a year on benefits (in non covid times). That's £5000 per citizen (including kids) and doesn't count a whole bunch of other subsidies (free houses, loc…

I think that yes some people would work if they got to keep their UBI but there’d a considerable amount who would be okay to scrape by and do nothing or work part time instead of full time. If I understood my high school cohort, this is okay but it’s an unproductive part of society. Some people are just not motivated.

I think we have a weird attitude to work. The western employment rate is about 50%. 50% of people don't do any form of paid employment.

The truth is, we've just accepted that a big proportion of the population are allowed to opt out despite not having paid in. Sure, some of them are kids. But most aren't.

So we engage in this weird exercise and pretend that for every 10 people, there are 5 workers, 2 deserving unemployed and 3 dirty slackers who lack motivation and should probably be whipped. Excuse my fun hyperbole.

A UBI is just a more honest approach. It treats everyone the same. It doesn't bother forcing unemployed people to pretend they're disabled or that someone a month before their 65th birthday is lazy but someone a month after it is "retired"...

Re: Universal basic income to be tested in Wales

#299

Post by ItsMonkk »

chii wrote: post #222
ItsMonkk wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it fascinating that this community can both have this stance and find nothing wrong with the FIRE movement. What is a $1000/month UBI? Using the 4% rule, it's equivalent to having investments worth $300000. I have a feeling that a lot of people on HN have a portfolio worth $300000. Are you still working?

> find nothing wrong with the FIRE movement. because those that get onto FIRE earned it themselves, rather than off the backs of taxpayers like in UBI.

Well at least we both agree to 100% inheritance taxes.
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