Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

reuters.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

391–400 of 511 posts

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#391

Post by arminiusreturns »

babayega2 wrote: post #379
devoutsalsa wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Small correction... China’s belt & road initiative is more about lending than buying.

I work with some UN and Bretton Woods institutions lending money to Africa and I can tell you that IMF/WB are also lending us money. They take "your hard earned savings" and come in here and invest her so that they can make future profits and grow the saving funds. If USA give you his money, as head of state you need to understand that it is not for the joy of it but that money need to yield interest or you will be t…

Economic hitmen make regular hitman numbers look pathetic, both in lives and money.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#392

Post by imtringued »

supergirl wrote: post #359
Slartie wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The machines from ASML are just tools (very precise and high-tech tools, but still tools) for one step in the semiconductor fabbing process. They don't come with a manual describing the entire process, but are more like a software library: useless without a lot of infrastructure and process know-how and other tooling around them. That's why TSMC still has a significant process advantage to other manufacturers, even t…

if they are "just tools", why doesn't TSMC just build them themselves? I'm not hearing any major challenges here that couldn't be overcome in the EU, considering the EU is capable of building some of the machines which are state of the art. yeah, you need capital and workforce and a bunch of other things. those aren't really blockers though. I think maybe there is no point, since it would cost more than TSMC, so bett…

Why would you do something like that if you don't need to?

The fact that someone is willing to build these machines for you is a good thing.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#393

Post by throwaway4good »

babayega2 wrote: post #340

The Nikkei has a detailed article [0] on the steps that China is taking to compete with TSMC and other western chip factories. I think a lot of commenters would be meaningful if they took time to read the other side of the problem and not just run into nationalist and inflammatory war. [0] https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/The-Big-Story/US-China-tec...

That is a fantastic article. I have tried submitting it here unfortunately it didn't catch much interest.

Very sad at the level of discussion here at hn when it comes to the US-China tech war. It is quite fascinating what is happening in China where the country is forced to rebuild a full semiconductor industry. Every established player here in the west has a Chinese counterpart being forstered.

It is really a Chinese Sputnik moment and a whole of society effort. Must be a great time to be Chinese semiconductor engineer.

As for TSMC, it has with the current Taiwanese goverment, placed itself firmly in the US camp where they will let go of any Chinese customer at the US government's command. However a considerable minority (maybe even a majority in business circles) in Taiwan see themselves as Chinese and are not at all sympathetic to US containment policies on China.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#394

Post by imtringued »

speleding wrote: post #373
lousken wrote: post #65

Is automotive industry all that EU cares about? What about IoT/robotics? The fact that TSMC want to build only their older fab here is really disappointing to me.

Biden promised $50 billion in subsidies for the industry, the EU does not have that kind of spending power, and (as a European) I'm happy they don't try to out-subsidise them. Chips are a global industry, so yes, the factories will end up there but we will be able to buy chips subsidised by US tax payers. Many economists would claim that business and citizens would be more likely to efficiently allocate that $50B the…

The problem with the chip industry is that it's not really a money maker. Yes you need factories in your own country but this is only because of national security, the actual economic benefit isn't the deciding factor.

The chip shortage is creating an economic incentive to expand production capacity on its own, there is no need for subsidies but countries should accommodate new fabs by making them viable to build them in the first place.

One big problem with fabs is that they need specialized staff, they are not going to employ the average worker.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#395

Post by JohnJamesRambo »

cm2187 wrote: post #361
Laforet wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politically it would be ideal to keep everything in Taiwan as this greatly increases the stakes for a potential war. However there is a pressing shortage of electricity in Taiwan. Just yesterday there had been a major blackout as one of the coal fired power stations suddenly went off the grid. I'm sure TSMC has been given priority supply but they are cutting it extremely close. Taiwan is just not a good place to have…

I read the main problem at the moment for fabs in Taiwan is water shortages. https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tech/Semiconductors/TSMC-ta...

“Better move to Arizona.”

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#396

Post by elefanten »

babayega2 wrote: post #317
Dah00n wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can’t see how we can do business with a country that invaded a democratic country. Where do we draw the line? Because there is one country in the western world that would be banned from trade if destroying democracies are not allowed. It is also the only country in the world that has toppled governments so many times it has its own Wikipedia article. So unless you define it as only "full-scale invasion" the US wou…

As someone from Africa with knowledge of USA involvement in toppling some governments here, I sometimes wonder who's worst? A country I know for certain it has invaded unilaterally others (USA) or a country with potential of one day in the future for invading countries (China).

Please share the examples of the US “unilaterally invading” countries in Africa. I’m not aware of an example, but I’d love to learn something new.

If you are using fuzzy rhetoric to refer to various forms of political interference (clandestine or otherwise, legal or otherwise)... I would agree. But then the comparison vs. China and other world powers gets a lot muddier. Even the comparison between world powers and local powers gets muddy in that case. Politics, local or global, is historically ugly business.

The key global questions should be what frameworks of behavior do we want to condone? What justifications do we allow as legitimate nation-state motivations? How is it acceptable for states to treat their own people? (The last is particularly relevant when a state contains approximately 1/5th of humanity itself.)

Does China really offer a better vision to you?

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#397

Post by ta_ca »

systemvoltage wrote: post #125
crocodiletears wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would argue that by the time China comes to take Taiwan (when, not if), the US will be in a position where it is unwilling/able to expend the lives and funds required to provide a prolonged defense of a piece of land firmly in China's front yard. Personally, I think we're at the point where the US would consider the costs of Taiwan's defense well beyond any potential benefits. It's too economically integrated with…

Our memory is fading. Just 5-6 years ago, Intel fabs had the best process technology and TSMC was behind. No one could have guessed what the state of the world would be in 2021 with any significant certainty. Who knows what would happen in another 5 years? We are so myopic when it comes to the bias towards the status quo. We give more weight to what the current situation is and then extrapolate that the future will b…

> Instead of war, invest in domestic technology. It pays back better

is it though? if you got the biggest gun why not rob someone else? do you believe ethics/empathy/humanity plays any role in any form governance? since we know that if you can sell the idea, you can get away with anything. why not just do the thing you know best? this is not singling out USA or China in any sense, they are just ahead of the curve, flower of the century.

a system optimized for only profit with almost no accountability (externalities) reads like a recipe to transfer of the wealth from many to few. if you add war into equation many becomes many-brown, many-yellow, many-black, many-jewish, many-others basicaly many-we-can-target-and-get-away-with. if you remove borders from the equation you end up seeing yourself on the receiving end as well. yet no-surprisingly few remains always the same.

so, the question is 'it pays back better to whom?'.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#398

Post by Laforet »

cm2187 wrote: post #361
Laforet wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politically it would be ideal to keep everything in Taiwan as this greatly increases the stakes for a potential war. However there is a pressing shortage of electricity in Taiwan. Just yesterday there had been a major blackout as one of the coal fired power stations suddenly went off the grid. I'm sure TSMC has been given priority supply but they are cutting it extremely close. Taiwan is just not a good place to have…

I read the main problem at the moment for fabs in Taiwan is water shortages. https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tech/Semiconductors/TSMC-ta...

TSMC reportedly uses over 50 million tonnes of water per year, which is a drop in the bucket compared to the annual 12 billion tonnes consumed by agriculture.

https://highscope.ch.ntu.edu.tw/wordpress/?p=42837

In any case, the current drought is likely to ease at some point but the electricity problem is only going to get worse.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#399

Post by elefanten »

MrsPeaches wrote: post #346
onetimemanytime wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, in theory you are right. But I doubt the average citizen lost from that. Did those guys win elections or just stole them /took power by gun to loot the country?

Patrice Lumumba [1] won an election and was removed and assassinated by the US and Belgian governments. They replaced him with Mobutu Sese Seko a kleptocratic and murderous dictator, whom they supported for most of his reign. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobutu_Sese_Seko

We’ve lost the plot here. Lumumba assassination was in 1960... 60 years ago. Since then, China had a Cultural Revolution, murdered their own people in Tiananmen, taken over by force and oppression in Tibet, Xinjiang and Hong Kong.

If we are comparing the character and proposed world order of China vs. US (or whoever else), we should be focused on the present: that which is actually on the table to choose between.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#400

Post by ReptileMan »

Dah00n wrote: post #341
onetimemanytime wrote: post #325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, in theory you are right. But I doubt the average citizen lost from that. Did those guys win elections or just stole them /took power by gun to loot the country?

That...is a very racist view of African governments.

Sorry. Saying that region is a mess full with strongmans, dictators and other unsavory people on top is not racist.

North of Africa is a mess. A lot of Sub-Saharan is ruled by strongmen. And even the places where there is actually democracy the state apparatus usually tries to rig elections in favor of current rulers.

Both by territory and population I am willing to bet that the people that live in countries with free and fair elections with peaceful transitions between administrations are a minority.

Post reply on HN