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TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

reuters.com

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Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#361

Post by cm2187 »

Laforet wrote: post #299
mook wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a first pass, wouldn't this be good for China? TSMC was strategic for Taiwan, as a military takeover of Taiwan (where the plants will likely be damaged or scuttled) would be economically damaging for the US. That might be a bit different if the US has enough high-the fabs internally. I'd love to hear better analysis; I'm not confident of my understanding here.

Politically it would be ideal to keep everything in Taiwan as this greatly increases the stakes for a potential war. However there is a pressing shortage of electricity in Taiwan. Just yesterday there had been a major blackout as one of the coal fired power stations suddenly went off the grid. I'm sure TSMC has been given priority supply but they are cutting it extremely close. Taiwan is just not a good place to have…

I read the main problem at the moment for fabs in Taiwan is water shortages.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Tech/Semiconductors/TSMC-ta...

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#362

Post by pas »

bserge wrote: post #288
_the_inflator wrote: post #228

"European chip and auto companies, for their part, are mostly lined up against the idea. They would prefer subsidies for the older-generation chips that are heavily used by car manufacturers and are in short supply. Many of TSMC's most lucrative customers, such as Apple, are U.S.-based, while its European customer base is made up of mostly of automakers buying less-advanced chips." Oh boy... This is exactly why EU wi…

They do have a point, subsidies for something the EU doesn't really use are sort of wasted taxpayer money. But I think a leading edge chip fab in the EU would be strategically important.

The EU wants a homegrown solution - as usual, they are providing frontloaded loans for this from the NextGenEU ~700B EUR fund.

https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/news/member-states-...

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#363

Post by mrtksn »

RedShift1 wrote: post #223
Griffinsauce wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I remember correctly, ones Rupert Murdoch famously said that it’s impossible to find a phone number to call. Do the HN rules of assuming good faith apply to him as well? /s https://europa.eu/european-union/contact/call-us_en Please don't signal boost easily falsifiable claims like this. The function of it is to sow division and prevent proper nuanced discussion.

R.M. probably meant it more as a figure of speech.

Exactly, it's not about actually finding a number to call but to convey the nature of the organisation. It might not even be a real quote by anyone but it is used to portray EU. It is a bad thing or good thing, depending on your opinions on governmental centralisation and the relations of businesspeople with politicians.

Unfortunately we can no longer have conversation on politics without rage, so I agree that it is a bit provocative. That said, I don't see how we can talk about the TSMCs failure to strike a deal with the EU without pointing out about this fundamental difference between EU and USA.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#364

Post by fxtentacle »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #304
fxtentacle wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other people have called this the greatest strength of Nintendo: build stuff with slightly older parts that are cheap and proven to work, so that you don't have to sell at a loss That aside, I'm in the process of designing an USB gadget and I find process shrinks quite pesky. Of course it'll reduce production costs for the manufacturer of the IC but it also reduces flanking times which causes more electromagnetic int…

Except Nintendo's strength and main selling ponit was never their hardware, but their vast entertainment IP roster(Super Mario, etc.) which they go to great lengths to enforce its protection. So it's not a good comparison to products who's performance is dependent on being on the latest tech nodes.

I'd say car performance is pretty independent of the performance of the embedded CPU

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#365

Post by mjgs »

exporectomy wrote: post #237
mjgs wrote: post #232

I wonder how significant it is that there is all this worldwide expansion of chip making factories just as we get to 3nm architectures, I say that because there aren’t very many nm’s left, what happens when we get to zero?

We already ran out of microns in the 1990's.

lol

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#366

Post by devoutsalsa »

Dah00n wrote: post #343
babayega2 wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone from Africa with knowledge of USA involvement in toppling some governments here, I sometimes wonder who's worst? A country I know for certain it has invaded unilaterally others (USA) or a country with potential of one day in the future for invading countries (China).

I can't say which outcome will be better but I do personally like China's way of buying their way in with money, roads, etc. better than the "old way" with selling guns to rebels, using CIA agents etc. I wish both would stop meddling in Africa though. Such a horrific history of greed. I'm curious how you see the difference though?

Small correction... China’s belt & road initiative is more about lending than buying.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#367

Post by mjgs »

LatteLazy wrote: post #285
exporectomy wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We already ran out of microns in the 1990's.

Silicon atoms are only 0.235nm apart. So at 1nm you only have 5 atoms left. At 0.2nm you have one atom lleft and it stops behaving like a semiconductor. So there are real physical limits to nm scale devices that don't apply to micron sized ones. Admittedly were not as close to those limits as it seems since "nm" quoted on CPUs etc is no longer a literal size of the object. But we're getting there...

So we got 5 atoms left? Shit that’s not a lot is it.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#368

Post by Zenst »

So they had talks with the EU and disagreed so the news is they are not building a factory in Europe. I do wonder if the talks had gone amicably, would the story say EU then.

I do appreciate for many the terms EU and Europe are interpolatable but in reality they are not.

Do also keep in mind that such actions/statements by companies can often be a case of political bargaining and TSMC in effect telling the EU - look we don't want to be messed about, if your serious then now is the time to decide and if not, we will not delay things any further in your endless talking.

Another article upon this matter: https://www.itpro.co.uk/hardware/components/359547/tsmc-eu-c...

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#369

Post by schmorptron »

croes wrote: post #266
schmorptron wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. This is sooo frustrating. Why does Europe, and Germany especially, just NOT grasp digitalization at all? I'm growing ever more angry that almost our politicians are 80 year old mega-boomers who are voted in by other boomers and couldn't care less about any interests other than their own. Young people and their climate & computors be damned.

It's a little bit more complicated. TSMC wants subvention for building the fabs, but the chips that will be produced will be sold elsewhere. So the EU gains nothing from it but costs. The EU needs a european chip manufacturer and developer not a subsidiary of Intel or TSMC

Yeah, I made that comment more out of emotion and without doing any research, that's on me, sorry.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#370

Post by pas »

christkv wrote: post #270
croes wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a little bit more complicated. TSMC wants subvention for building the fabs, but the chips that will be produced will be sold elsewhere. So the EU gains nothing from it but costs. The EU needs a european chip manufacturer and developer not a subsidiary of Intel or TSMC

Guess what by putting a factory doing the newest node you educate a whole new generation of engineers that can build and run those next fabs.

TSMC buys their next gen stuff from ASML (Netherlands), so the problem is not knowledge transfer, it's good old manufacturing and scaling up. (And that means labor, and traditionally labor laws in the Members States meant that offshoring large scale production was the smart choice ... strategic importance or not, if it doesn't make sense economically and business-wise, then that means it'll be instantly worthless strategically too.)
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