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TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

reuters.com

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Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#351

Post by smulc »

_the_inflator wrote: post #228

"European chip and auto companies, for their part, are mostly lined up against the idea. They would prefer subsidies for the older-generation chips that are heavily used by car manufacturers and are in short supply. Many of TSMC's most lucrative customers, such as Apple, are U.S.-based, while its European customer base is made up of mostly of automakers buying less-advanced chips." Oh boy... This is exactly why EU wi…

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_manufacturing_si... - Intel has a 14nm in the EU (Ireland) and has planned a 7nm fab also - so "the EU" also plays in this space. A TSMC fab also would be good too of course but things aren't that bad.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#352

Post by powerapple »

mschuster91 wrote: post #329
andy_ppp wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China will do everything it can to keep the factories in a war, it’s likely the US would offer a lot of Taiwanese US visas especially those in tech, it’s likely the Taiwanese people will have a general strike and the whole place will be very unpleasant to live in after probably many hundreds of thousands of Chinese dead due to choke points getting onto the island. It’s likely after an invasion most production for the…

> after probably many hundreds of thousands of Chinese dead due to choke points getting onto the island I wouldn't put it past China to simply flatten the entire island or at least everything surrounding these chokepoints with conventional bombs until submission and genocide whoever remains alive afterwards.

China does not want to take over Taiwan other than not having a non-US-ally close at door. Previous government of Taiwan had good relationship with China, although China didn't allow them to join WHO as an independent country, it did permit it to join WHA and WHO as a non-member state. China's trade deficit with Taiwan is tens of billions dollars every year.

It is just that US's strategy of containing China works really well with the pro-independence party in Taiwan. Anyone allowing Taiwan to be fully independent will lose power in China. It is mainly a proxy power fight between US and China. Taiwan is the most important spot in the first pearl chain containing China. China will have to make a decision either to break the chain or be contained forever. It is a interesting year, since we already have three or four wars broke out this year so far.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#354

Post by vagrantJin »

Dah00n wrote: post #309
andy_ppp wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China will do everything it can to keep the factories in a war, it’s likely the US would offer a lot of Taiwanese US visas especially those in tech, it’s likely the Taiwanese people will have a general strike and the whole place will be very unpleasant to live in after probably many hundreds of thousands of Chinese dead due to choke points getting onto the island. It’s likely after an invasion most production for the…

>I can’t see how we can do business with a country that invaded a democratic country. Where do we draw the line? Because there is one country in the western world that would be banned from trade if destroying democracies are not allowed. It is also the only country in the world that has toppled governments so many times it has its own Wikipedia article. So unless you define it as only "full-scale invasion" the US wou…

[Retracted]

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#355

Post by kindly_fo »

ineedasername wrote: post #25
cromka wrote: post #15

I don't think EU cuts deals with specific companies. What would TMSC expect here? That EU gave them money straight up? I don't know how this would work, but maybe I am missing something. If anything, EU would create a generic fund to subsidize any such investment coming from any company interested, but at EU level, it would definitely take time. Or they can talk to individual countries about subsidies, just like they…

The EU could recognize it as a strategic security issue to not have the most advanced chip fabs located in a geographical sphere of influence that is not always aligned with their interests. They would work with TSMC in particular because they're the most advanced. The strategic side of things is slightly less of a concern for them if TSMC bring capacity online in the US since they're mostly on good terms, but it's s…

Eu can buy end product much cheaper than producing it themselves. And if the fabs located in us or korea or japan, I think it's good for eu.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#356

Post by andy_ppp »

powerapple wrote: post #352
mschuster91 wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> after probably many hundreds of thousands of Chinese dead due to choke points getting onto the island I wouldn't put it past China to simply flatten the entire island or at least everything surrounding these chokepoints with conventional bombs until submission and genocide whoever remains alive afterwards.

China does not want to take over Taiwan other than not having a non-US-ally close at door. Previous government of Taiwan had good relationship with China, although China didn't allow them to join WHO as an independent country, it did permit it to join WHA and WHO as a non-member state. China's trade deficit with Taiwan is tens of billions dollars every year. It is just that US's strategy of containing China works rea…

Business as usual you could say...

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#357

Post by supergirl »

stdgy wrote: post #316
supergirl wrote: post #297

does TSMC own any valuable tech? I thought they just purchase the machines from ASML, a dutch company. if there is market for chips, why doesn't some EU company set up a foundry in EU? I'm sure there are many capable companies and the lithography tech is already made in EU.

You don't just 'purchase machines' to magically create cutting edge semiconductors. If this were the case, why in the world would ASML be selling them to TSMC? ASML's Q1 Net Revenue: $2.79 billion TSMC Q1 Net Revenue: $12.9 billion Don't you think ASML would just pocket the world's semiconductor income if this were the case? The machines are only a part of the equation. How you use the machines and the processes you…

by that logic, why doesn't TSMC build the machines themselves and pocket the money?

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#358

Post by ta_ca »

vagrantJin wrote: post #354
Dah00n wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I can’t see how we can do business with a country that invaded a democratic country. Where do we draw the line? Because there is one country in the western world that would be banned from trade if destroying democracies are not allowed. It is also the only country in the world that has toppled governments so many times it has its own Wikipedia article. So unless you define it as only "full-scale invasion" the US wou…

[Retracted]

i think you may have misunderstood him, you both are talking about the same thing

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#359

Post by supergirl »

Slartie wrote: post #345
supergirl wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is TSMC doing anything innovative themselves? I thought they just purchase the machines or at least specs from ASML, a Dutch company. So the "best tech" is designed in EU anyway.

The machines from ASML are just tools (very precise and high-tech tools, but still tools) for one step in the semiconductor fabbing process. They don't come with a manual describing the entire process, but are more like a software library: useless without a lot of infrastructure and process know-how and other tooling around them. That's why TSMC still has a significant process advantage to other manufacturers, even t…

if they are "just tools", why doesn't TSMC just build them themselves?

I'm not hearing any major challenges here that couldn't be overcome in the EU, considering the EU is capable of building some of the machines which are state of the art. yeah, you need capital and workforce and a bunch of other things. those aren't really blockers though. I think maybe there is no point, since it would cost more than TSMC, so better just buy the chips. at least until now, when there is a chip shortage and you regret not having a foundry. by the same logic there is no point to manufacture a lot of things in EU (or US) because it's cheaper to get them from China.

Re: TSMC looks to double down on U.S. chip factories as talks in Europe falter

#360

Post by supergirl »

andy_ppp wrote: post #305
supergirl wrote: post #294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is TSMC doing anything innovative themselves? I thought they just purchase the machines or at least specs from ASML, a Dutch company. So the "best tech" is designed in EU anyway.

If it was that simple loads of companies would be smashing out 5nm chips...

not saying it's simple. there are big companies in EU like Siemens that I bet are capable of doing it, if it makes sense economically. I guess so far it didn't. probably the reason was that it's cheaper to get the chips from Asia, same as it's cheaper to make iphones in Asia, etc.
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