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China lands rover on Mars

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211–220 of 359 posts

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#211

To the (flagged) comments about China stealing research: I’ll abstract from lack of evidence. Just stealing isn’t enough. Russia, I believe, ended up admitting stealing research on the Space Shuttle, and despite that their own project never really materialised. Even. You steal, that lets you catch up, not overtake. So even if China is helping themselves (again, I don’t know), they still have to innovate and improve.…

The stone cold fact is that China has n-times engineers than USA, mostly working for the same American companies who outsourced their RnD, and engineering decades ago, and working on mostly the same things. It strikes me every time hearing such argument from people completely oblivious to the above fact.

It's not just a numbers game (though as Stalin said - quantity does have a quality all of it's own).

Life is rarely that simple - there are also sociological/societal causes plus the required surrounding infrastructure.

China has made dramatic leaps in technological capability but they still can't make a good competitive jet engine and they've been pouring resources into that for literally decades.

Even if you have the plans (and realistically they probably do) just the metallurgy alone is an absolute nightmare.

There are a handful of countries that can do it reasonably well and only a couple of companies that can do it approaching the state of the art.

General Electric and Rolls Royce (with P&W following behind) - there are a few other smaller companies and CFM International which is GE and one of the smaller companies, Safran (used to be Snecma).

That is just one area - in the long term who knows but in the mid-term China will do well to achieve equivalency in a number of areas (and in fairness they know this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025)

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#212
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FYI , you know that US was caught spying on other countries, including economical espionage(on Airbus) and I remember I seen recently some video about US getting access to some Russian equipment and the hyper patriotic narrator ... now imagine I would invent some stupid accusation that SpaceX is built on tech stolent from Russia and airbus without any proof just some unrelated links about that a guy maybe stole some…

There is quite a bit of whataboutism when Chinese espionage comes up, however the key difference is that the government has a financial interest in most companies and often shares loot from foreign competitors with local businesses. Yes, the US, Russia, France, etc. do this too. The big difference is when the government gives Lockheed the design plans for a new Chinese fighter jet the goal is to develop countermeasur…

My issue with this comments here is, do you have any proof? China made a rover with 6 wheels and this means it is stolen? WTF is the "round corners" issue again?

I would like to see something more real, like Patent 1234 "Mars rover with metal wheels" then show how China somwhow broke this ridiculous patent. OR show that US rover contains some super secret tech that is also present in China stuff.

As far as I know China can send his smartest people in US, EU or other countries to learn advanced stuff then bring them back in have them teach in their universities. Combine that with a large population and a hard working people that have respect for science I can easily see them getting number one in sciences and tech.

IMO, keeping things secrets is not a valid long term strategy, look at the Apple new CPU/GPU people are reverse engineering it fast. The only thing Apple can do is put tons of patents (including shit ones) and then FUD everyone with their army of lawyers.

There was a post yesterday I think about someone implementing a similar algorithm with the SpaceXs one to vertical land a virtual rocket, see is possible to implement a similar looking thing without sending a commando of guys and steal tech.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The absurdity of the "it's stealing" position is obvious when you imagine what the world would look like if everybody suddenly decided each country is doing only their own research and is not allowed to use any external idea. It would be utterly ridiculous. Copying-and-improving is the default, it's what makes us move forward as humanity. Everything else is just politics and national pride.

"They're only copying" was also an accusation famously leveled by Britain against the US (see Lowell[1] and The Pirates of Penzance[2]) and by the US against Japan around the turn of the 20th century. Copying complex technologies is hard and countries that are able to succeed at it usually go on to become innovative. [1] https://www.history.com/news/industrial-revolution-spies-eur... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki…

The US would then turn around and copy Japanese submarines in 1940s and 50s after the war (admittedly a smaller amount than what they copied from German designs.)

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#214

I had no idea they had a rover on the way, very cool! What is the objective and the interest in the Utopia site?

I am usually up to date on these sorts of things and this is the first I have heard of it.

That said, absolutely amazing to see happen! Here is hoping that it lasts long past the design date like the others tend to do.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#215

It seems pretty silly to get all up in arms about copying other peoples' stuff. That's how humanity has innovated throughout the ages: Copy what works and innovate on top of it. None of our inventions arise from a vacuum. Cars are still as wide as Roman chariots for good reason. Power transfer uses the same base principles as were in play during the dawn of steam engines and before. Energy conversion has been an iter…

Precisely. Instead of crying the same people should question their Government on why the tech wasn't protected enough if it was not supposed to be copied.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#216

It seems pretty silly to get all up in arms about copying other peoples' stuff. That's how humanity has innovated throughout the ages: Copy what works and innovate on top of it. None of our inventions arise from a vacuum. Cars are still as wide as Roman chariots for good reason. Power transfer uses the same base principles as were in play during the dawn of steam engines and before. Energy conversion has been an iter…

Not directly relevant to this case, since I don't know anything about these Mars rovers than the superficial stuff from news outlets, but I think that what hurts isn't the copying, but boasting about it, presenting it as your own, not acknowledging the source, etc.

A trivial example: a nephew of mine proudly showed his drawings. They were really fantastic for his age, and everyone told him so. Turns out, he drew them by putting paper on a computer monitor (this was back when CRTs were still the fashion) and tracing. That did change the perception of merit a bit. The difference in the difficulty underlies the difference in appreciation.

To make my stance entirely clear: this is not meant to condone or condemn either side.

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#217

I'm curious, their landing vehicle seems to have less moving parts than the respective US rovers that use a complex sky-crane. Is there a particular benefit to using the sky-crane?

The parachute + inflatable bouncy ball landing vehicle worked for the spirit and opportunity rovers. I recall seeing something from NASA that the spirit size landing was about the maximum size that was viable for that. They were explaining why re using the same design for the new much larger RTG powered rovers would not be possible.

This book on Curiosity by it's chief engineer (who went on to work on Perserverance) covers that and other tradeoffs well:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1588344037/

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#218
post #191

What I find very exciting and something that is totally lacking from any news articles and discussions I have seen outside space-geek circles is that China is actually very much open to cooperate with other agencies. The China Russia plan of a base on the moon is open to partners whom would like to join: International Lunar Research Station. https://spacenews.com/china-russia-open-moon-base-project-to...

> The China Russia plan of a base on the moon is open to partners whom would like to join

Including Taiwan?

Re: China lands rover on Mars

#220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your homework? Thank you for taking us to Mars.

Being part of the "western" aerospace industry and collaborating with NASA, I do consider it our homework, yes.

How did they copy it? Which parts did they copy? Given it arrived at Mars at around the same time as perseverance... (it left in the same transfer window right?)
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