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Overcoming Tab Overload

scs.cmu.edu

171–180 of 240 posts

Re: Overcoming Tab Overload

#171
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I'm the same. People who sneer at large tab collections don't seem to realise that when they can be put to sleep, tidied away (various extensions allow groups to be folded), they are more like advanced bookmarks and working context. Or, they think there is no justification for having such collections. For me they are working context for different projects over years. Working on project X a month ago? 6 month…

Is what you're describing any different from just bookmarking all the tabs in a window to a new folder and closing the window? That's what I do. And then just open the whole folder as tabs in a new window when I go back to something. Then the advantage is that I can give the folder a name, a date, tags, nest it under a grouping of folders, etc. Plus I can back up bookmarks which gives me huge peace of mind. I've been…

There are many differences.

First, if you "open the whole folder", you have to wait for a few hundred tabs to open for a large project, a few tens for a small project. That's very slow and uses a lot of memory. They don't open quickly in the asleep state the same was as tab sessions do.

Then there is the maintenance of the folder. If you bookmark all tabs in a window to a folder, later you'll open the whole folder, do a bit of work, reading, whatever, then save to a new folder because the set of active items isn't the same as it was when you started. Now you have to delete the old folder, otherwise you'll end up with a different miserable problem: Huge numbers of folders of bookmarks, all slightly different.

You'll probably need to do this a few hundred times over the life of a big project, if you context switch like I do in and out of different projects. That's a lot of folder activity.

Sure you can date them, but do you remember why you didn't delete a folder, was it because you wanted to keep that one or just forgot?

You can't realistically update the bookmark folder incrementally as you go, because there is no visual indicator showing which of the currently active tabs in the window has a matching bookmark (or which bookmarks in the folder are now excess), and it's too onerous and difficult to bookmark each time you open a tab in that window and delete a bookmark each time you close a tab.

Then, there's context. It's a little thing, but remembering the scroll position is a useful cue for later, in a large article, though if some section or comment has a permalink I tend to click that before leaving the tab. Ideally I'd want to be able to annotate pages as well, to quickly note why I've kept that article, documentation, comment or whatever open, but we take what little we can get from the tools we have. (It's possible to select text regions in each tab, at least in Firefox, but I've never actually checked if those selections stay selected across a browser restart. Anyway, they disappear uncomfortably too easy to rely on.)

> Even if tabs are sleeping, if you have 100 different mini-projects going on from the past year, do you have... 100 different windows open all the time? How do you even find the window you need?

For perspective, I wouldn't say I do 100 mini projects in a year, it's fewer than that, but a number of them span multiple years.

I don't have 100 windows, I have currently 22, but it's temporary and will reduce. I consolidated some related things recently. Three windows are for my current work project, for which there are about 300 tabs. This is because there's an active working area window (GitHub etc), a collected-things-from-work-and-researched-items-for-work window, and another for activities on a different monitor like watching videos and shared notes.

With some tab management extensions you can make foldable groups - this is what people talk about with Tree Style Tabs, Sidebery (which I'm using now) and other hierarchical tab management extensions. This means you don't need 100 windows for 100 projects; you can effectively archive projects.

To even find Windows used to be very difficult until I started using an extension that lets me give names to Windows. Ironically the window-naming extension I use is Tab Count in Window Title, because I tried several others and they showed up as using more browser resources, so this is the one I use. Having the tab count is quite helpful anyway :-) (Because if I forgot to give a window a title, it still tends to have a a recognisable tab count and current page.) Now they all have names in the "Window" menu, and when moving around in the window manager. I find this useful for "Move to window" (by name) as well, which I use to move a tab that was opened in the wrong place or something ephemeral I decided to keep, to the appropriate window where I can go through and organise them a bit more later.

There's also a geographical aspect. Those browser windows are overlapping but not at quite the same place on the desktop, and they are different sizes. The locations work ok with my memory for recently used windows. MacOS's four-finger-swipe-down is good, and I position windows somewhat consciously to be helpful for this. Some of them are deliberately shaped as narrow rectangles, as a reminder they have queued items I need to organise (and then probably close that window).

There are a lot of improvements possible to this setup. I don't feel I've found what would be ideal for me. I have a fairly clear idea of what I'd like, but don't know any tool that comes close, and I don't have the spare time to write one. But bookmarks of URLs in linear lists or with basic folders, flat history lists that don't distinguish things I want to keep versus things I don't, are not it. I tried the history thing, it was very time consuming to recover the information I needed from it.

Re: Overcoming Tab Overload

#172

My main problem with tabs is that they function as an additional window manager, meaning I'm constantly using two window managers at the same time, and getting confused between them. For example, I can use Ctrl+Tab to cycle through browser tabs and Alt+Tab to cycle through windows. I can't use either to cycle through everything I have open.

It is actually worse than that. Many/most implementations of tabs are completely opaque to the window manager so if you want to programmatically control your browser windows e.g. by moving a window with a certain title to the front you can't do it for windows that contain a certain tab unless it is the active tab. Oops.

Re: Overcoming Tab Overload

#173
post #169

I was a VERY late convert to tabs, and I only use them for browsers now (and not all the time, either). I always felt that the OS X command-tilde functionality, for switching between windows the same way you switch through applications using command-tab, was superior. You're always switching between the most recently used windows, chronologically. You can even remember when something was several keystrokes back, and…

I’ve often wondered if a sort function that could switch between “manual” tab order and recent tab order. So that you could keep things organized in both space and time.

Re: Overcoming Tab Overload

#174
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is what you're describing any different from just bookmarking all the tabs in a window to a new folder and closing the window? That's what I do. And then just open the whole folder as tabs in a new window when I go back to something. Then the advantage is that I can give the folder a name, a date, tags, nest it under a grouping of folders, etc. Plus I can back up bookmarks which gives me huge peace of mind. I've been…

> Is what you're describing any different from just bookmarking all the tabs in a window to a new folder and closing the window? Tabs are formed automatically, closed easily, and organized by the order you opened them in. Bookmarks require going through a multi-step dialog, removing them requires another dialog, and they're organized by manually creating a nested folder hierarchy. I think most excessive tab use is do…

yeah bookmark ux is so bad!! why so many dialogs and painful recall ability.

Re: Overcoming Tab Overload

#175
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, I'm the same. People who sneer at large tab collections don't seem to realise that when they can be put to sleep, tidied away (various extensions allow groups to be folded), they are more like advanced bookmarks and working context. Or, they think there is no justification for having such collections. For me they are working context for different projects over years. Working on project X a month ago? 6 month…

> I asked people what they do to tackle my sorts of projects. The answers were always the same: Some ums and ahs, and it turns out they don't. They just don't take on the same kinds of things. And what are these kinds of projects that you are the only one to tackle?

I'm not unique in the kinds of projects I've tackled over the years. My projects tend to be technical, scientific, or legal/accounting, and tend to build on a lot of serendipitously found knowledge in articles, comments, mailing list posts, Github issues, research papers, as I read around or discover on the side while researching specific topics.

I should have said, "I asked people who like to tell me I'm doing it wrong what they do...".

There's a small subset of people I found telling me I'm wrong/insane, there's something wrong with me, I'm untidy, that I should do something else and I have a hoarding problem, etc...

Among that subset, I found they consistently had no better solutions to offer when asked, and this is because they just didn't feel the need to tackle problems involving a lot of reading material that needs to be retained, referenced from and used as an increasingly authoritative knowledge base over time in order to complete technical projects using that knowledge.

It is that lack of better solutions from armchair critics which has led me to believe I'm not necessarily "doing it wrong", even though I know perfectly well that it has problems, and what kinds of systems I would prefer to use if I could find or build them.

One of those people was quite helpful though, and rightly pointed me to knowledge-base software (that they themselves weren't using mind), but somehow seemed to think I have a lot more spare time than I do to maintain the contents, and thought I was bluffing about that. I do actually take a lot of notes already, have been doing so for many years, and I know how long it takes me. When to take notes, and when to leave things in tabs (perhaps to take notes on later), is about prioritising long-term task flows.

I'm sure there are people who have much better solutions than I've found so far, and perhaps they could show me someday. (Though, it's not likely to convince me if it involves closed-source software and locked away information, or too much time-consuming clipping process before you're allowed to move on to some other big task, as those do come up.)

But I haven't met those people yet. Only critics who don't have better solutions, and think large numbers of tabs is a sign of mental laziness or something. Whatever I am, it's not lazy. Perhaps I should go to a tab-hoarders' conference and we can devise better tools there :-)

Re: Overcoming Tab Overload

#176
post #36
post #11

I love OneTab, being able to dump 50-100 tabs out to a running page of links to restart the browser is simple peace of mind to me.

I love Onetab as well. The problem I often have is sending a lot of tabs to Onetab, then never looking at them again. Which may not actually be a problem and more of an indication for how "important" the tab actually was. The dream for me would be if Onetab has a search feature that allowed you to search the text on all the tabbed pages that you saved. Because sometimes you save a tab because of a specific topic, but…

The OneNote value add to me is that it allows me to close tabs without guilt. I don't really need to save them but can't let go - OneNote lets me let go.

Re: Overcoming Tab Overload

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is (bugs withstanding) what Firefox does if you choose to"Restore previous session" int the General/Startup section of about:preferences . This feature is provided by a Gecko component called the the session store ( https://searchfox.org/mozilla-central/source/toolkit/compone... ).

Yeah I've been relying on this for about a year and have been really impressed. It's the first restore browser session I've ever used that just works. I never get "oops corrupted session, start over!" errors, etc like I used to get with chrome. Everything just fires back up with all the tabs, all the extensions, even all the different browser windows I had before. And it handles ungraceful shutdowns/restarts really w…

What makes it especially nice is that it doesn't reaload all the tabs at restart. Rather it waits until you switch to an old tab before it restores its state. This means you start up much faster and you're not consuming gobs of resources either.

Re: Overcoming Tab Overload

#178
post #169

I was a VERY late convert to tabs, and I only use them for browsers now (and not all the time, either). I always felt that the OS X command-tilde functionality, for switching between windows the same way you switch through applications using command-tab, was superior. You're always switching between the most recently used windows, chronologically. You can even remember when something was several keystrokes back, and…

This is one of the things that annoys me about Chrome. Last I checked, there wasn't a solution for this. Opera had it as a feature a long time ago.

Re: Overcoming Tab Overload

#179
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks like I've 81 tabs open in this Firefox window. It's not uncommon that I'll be over 1k (across one window per monitor). With `%` to search across open tabs, and an unused tab not really taking any meaningful amount of resources (especially with Auto Tab Discard) I open a whole load of tabs, close them if I realise I'm done with them while I'm looking at them, and if I don't close the tab then that's fine -- it's…

Seems like 1k is well beyond the state of usefulness for most people. Isn't it faster to re-google something than find the tab? And if there is a nice tab search.. is it better than google? Why keep a local cache?

For me, the problem tabs solve isn’t finding the thing, but remembering the thing to find. Bookmarks solve the former, but tabs act as a collection of topics that I care about at a given point in time.

While bookmarks accumulate over years and lose relevance and context, my tab collection acts in a revolving manner where old ones fall off as often as new ones are added. Their arrangement also forms an informal categorization system that requires very little effort; I hate trying to organize bookmarks, but organizing tabs is almost automatic. And while I do keep a lot of tabs (300-500 on average), the fact that they’re not free (they take up screen space and memory) prevents me from going overboard and encourages me to frequently cull tabs that have lost relevance.

All in all, I think my usage of tabs has come to reflect the way that I think and work, like an extension of my medium-term memory. That’s why I keep a cache of them.

Re: Overcoming Tab Overload

#180

I just wish there were a way to save page state along with a bookmark or similar. Sometimes I'd really like to close a ton of tabs, or just close my browser, or a whole window, and reopen tomorrow. But I'm relying on scroll position to know where I am in 20 different documents, or login credentials that only last for 24 hours, or certain comment threads that have been expanded while others have been collapsed, or my…

So did some Chrome developers back in 2015. From https://developers.google.com/web/updates/2015/09/tab-discar...:

> Future improvements: the tab serializer

> The tab serializer is a future piece of work we think may lead to significant improvements on our current approach to tab discarding. It takes the contents of a Chrome tab and serializes its current state into a binary blob. This binary blob can later be deserialized into a tab.

> The serializer would serialize almost everything Chrome, Blink and V8 need to properly preserve a tab (something Chrome extensions tackling this problem historically haven't been able to easily achieve). Serialization would include the usual suspects: the DOM (with a lot of WebGL and Canvas included), CSS and the state of the V8 JavaScript VM.

> If you use Android or ChromeOS, you may know that (similar to the tab discarding experiment covered in this post) we kill background tabs aggressively in order to ensure memory usage is low. The issue with the way we tackle this was that your tab would lose all of its state.

> When you showed interest in the tab again, we would have to reload it and all your interaction with it would be lost. The tab serializer just approaches this problem in a way that gets you back to almost exactly what you were without requiring going back to the network.

> We look forward to sharing more information about this work at a later date.

6 years later, we have... wait for iiiiiit... something called "freeze-dried tabs": https://www.xda-developers.com/google-chrome-89-freeze-dried...

It basically presents a pseudo-image of the current tab while the actual tab is loading in the background. The pseudo-picture contains text and image drawing commands so it can be zoomed in and out, and it's a snapshot of the entire webpage (probably subject to limitations I'm yet to identify). It's not interactive though beyond having a concept of "hit targets" for anchor elements, and AFAIK Android's only using it to speed up perceived browser startup at the moment (so not for tab switching).

To me, the fact that this silly feature has shipped on Android ("THE" platform), and for the most part very imperfectly filled the vacuum that would have been a canonically perfect match for tab serialization, is fairly concrete signal that tab serialization will never be implemented. D:

I can admittedly sorta appreciate that WebGL and DRM state would probably be tricky to perfectly save - the text says "a lot of", suggesting that the feature would sometimes fail and produce an inconsistent experience. Hmph. That would be better than nothing. And it's not like Google couldn't go look at how Firefox does it for ideas....

Sometimes I just wish a bunch of rich millionaires with no idea what to do with their money would make a giant big deal about _paying Google_ to implement specific obscure features into Chrome - like this one :D. It would cause all sorts of hilarious chaos in terms of processing the payment, which would itself make for excessively amusing headlines about feature prioritization and such.

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