Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that • Hacker News Board

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#81

Post by kingsuper20 » Fri, May 14, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

errantspark wrote: post #5

I wonder in the discussions surrounding these sorts of things (Right to be Forgotten, etc) if the issue isn't that there should be a right to be forgotten but rather that culturally we should be far far more tolerant of people fucking up. It feels like the perception of how much the average member of society transgresses its rules is totally out of sync with reality, though this may be by design to create space for e…

>we should be far far more tolerant of people fucking up

Absolutely. Even politicians.

Perhaps that will happen over time given the ever-increasing opportunities for record keeping inherent in databases, the internet, and ubiquitous surveillance devices in everybody's back pocket.

But, as that ain't happening anytime soon, maybe this is mostly a lesson in the importance of financial freedom and self-employment. If your future includes FAANGs or the .gov, or any other sizable employer, hewing to the hivemind becomes ever more important.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#82

Post by JumpCrisscross » Fri, May 14, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #39

I like that the proposed bills here are not attempts to force sites to remove mug shots (which seems like a losing battle) but instead just resists posting mug shots at all, which seems like something that police departments have complete control over. Unless it serves a legitimate law enforcement end, either as part of a punishment for being convicted of a crime or to aid the public in the search for a fugitive, it…

> resists posting mug shots at all, which seems like something that police departments have complete control over

Note that these laws originated from a civil rights perspective. Requiring the publication of arrests makes it harder for the police to disappear people.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#83

Post by throwaway0a5e » Fri, May 14, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #79

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who's budget pays the office staff? It's all under the same municipal umbrella at the end of the day. You can't get away with (at least not easily and not for a long period of time) wasting man-hours ($$$) on stuff that has no positive impact toward whatever metrics you are evaluated against (crime stats in the case of the cops) when resources are tight.

> You can't get away with (at least not easily and not for a long period of time) wasting man-hours ($$$) on stuff that has no positive impact toward whatever metrics you are evaluated against (crime stats in the case of the cops) when resources are tight. Most police departments are not really evaluated on crime stats, they are evaluated against the political satisfaction of the locally politically powerful (which t…

Yeah. I considered adding a few sentences to the tune of "the politicians won't stick their necks out covering this waste unless they think there's political gain for them so this is really a reflection of the priorities of the people in the town" but felt that would drag things toward the direction of nit picking over what the people actually want.

That said, at the small town level having less crime than the next town over is generally how you please everyone so there's a pretty good overlap between what the powers that be want the cops to deliver and "less crime".

Police performance is kind of a malleable and hard to pin down thing.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#84

Post by tablespoon » Fri, May 14, 2021, 9:32 PM UTC

andrewla wrote: post #39

I like that the proposed bills here are not attempts to force sites to remove mug shots (which seems like a losing battle) but instead just resists posting mug shots at all, which seems like something that police departments have complete control over. Unless it serves a legitimate law enforcement end, either as part of a punishment for being convicted of a crime or to aid the public in the search for a fugitive, it…

> I like that the proposed bills here are not attempts to force sites to remove mug shots (which seems like a losing battle) but instead just resists posting mug shots at all, which seems like something that police departments have complete control over.

I suppose they could also release future mug shots with a license that the images can't be distributed past such-and-such a date.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#85

Post by nradov » Fri, May 14, 2021, 9:35 PM UTC

LorenPechtel wrote: post #21

Good idea. I'd also like to see a law making it criminal for a site to post such information without also obviously posting that charges are dropped. You have one week to either take it down entirely or clearly mark it as dropped. If neither is done the post will be considered extortion. A very minor burden on news sites that have to update old articles. A big burden on the extortionist websites. And by making it a c…

Such a law probably wouldn't be Constitutional. Speech can't be compelled.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#86

Post by seoaeu » Fri, May 14, 2021, 9:36 PM UTC

moshmosh wrote: post #25

matsemann wrote: post #14

Why are names and pictures published before one even know if the person is guilty? And even if found guilty, why does the media use so much personal information? In my country it's always anonymous in the media, unless it's a person the media deems as the public having an interest in knowing about (political figure or so).

I think the idea is that making charges & arrests public keeps the system transparent, and makes it harder for the government to disappear people or otherwise do crazy despotic stuff. In practice I'm not convinced it was net-beneficial before the Internet, and I'm almost certain it's not in an Internet-equipped world.

I think that being public about the "who is currently being imprisoned by the government?" question is still a net positive. No so sure about the rest

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#87

Post by nradov » Fri, May 14, 2021, 9:38 PM UTC

admax88q wrote: post #8

dfxm12 wrote: post #4

What are the forces at play here? People don't want to be embarrassed by their mugshot vs people don't want to be discriminated against because of a mugshot vs the transparency of who cops are arresting and why. I don't know if laws should care about someone being embarrassed. I'm kind of surprised about this anti-transparency rhetoric coming someone who started a Libertarian think tank (but maybe I shouldn't be). I…

> Plus, if that's an issue we want to solve, then make laws that actually target discrimination because of arrest record. Do you honestly think such laws would be effective?

"Ban the box" laws have proven effective in reducing employment discrimination in several states. These laws prohibit employers from asking job applicants for most types of jobs about prior arrests or convictions.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#88

Post by cabaalis » Fri, May 14, 2021, 9:41 PM UTC

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #82

andrewla wrote: post #39

I like that the proposed bills here are not attempts to force sites to remove mug shots (which seems like a losing battle) but instead just resists posting mug shots at all, which seems like something that police departments have complete control over. Unless it serves a legitimate law enforcement end, either as part of a punishment for being convicted of a crime or to aid the public in the search for a fugitive, it…

> resists posting mug shots at all, which seems like something that police departments have complete control over Note that these laws originated from a civil rights perspective. Requiring the publication of arrests makes it harder for the police to disappear people.

> Requiring the publication of arrests makes it harder for the police to disappear people.

I see this so much in our society. A reaction to a "bad" practice which was actually invented to combat another "bad" practice. It leads me to believe there is just no way to contractualize human behavior over a sufficiently long period of time.

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#89

Post by akomtu » Fri, May 14, 2021, 9:42 PM UTC

tablespoon wrote: post #84

andrewla wrote: post #39

I like that the proposed bills here are not attempts to force sites to remove mug shots (which seems like a losing battle) but instead just resists posting mug shots at all, which seems like something that police departments have complete control over. Unless it serves a legitimate law enforcement end, either as part of a punishment for being convicted of a crime or to aid the public in the search for a fugitive, it…

> I like that the proposed bills here are not attempts to force sites to remove mug shots (which seems like a losing battle) but instead just resists posting mug shots at all, which seems like something that police departments have complete control over. I suppose they could also release future mug shots with a license that the images can't be distributed past such-and-such a date.

That would be a toothless law: some noname image board hosted in Somalia won't bother to respect US laws. Even US based firms won't care much because who's going to enforce the law? DAs on their own initiative? People on the mugshots?

Re: Online, mug shots are forever – some states want to change that

#90

Post by tablespoon » Fri, May 14, 2021, 9:44 PM UTC

errantspark wrote: post #5

I wonder in the discussions surrounding these sorts of things (Right to be Forgotten, etc) if the issue isn't that there should be a right to be forgotten but rather that culturally we should be far far more tolerant of people fucking up. It feels like the perception of how much the average member of society transgresses its rules is totally out of sync with reality, though this may be by design to create space for e…

> I wonder in the discussions surrounding these sorts of things (Right to be Forgotten, etc) if the issue isn't that there should be a right to be forgotten but rather that culturally we should be far far more tolerant of people fucking up. It feels like the perception of how much the average member of society transgresses its rules is totally out of sync with reality, though this may be by design to create space for exploitation.

That's "perfect being the enemy of the good" logic. Your solution might be more ideal in some sense, but it's also not realistic to implement. It's not too much different than saying the real issue is that we have crime in the first place. After all, if we didn't have crime, we wouldn't have police nor mugshots being albatrosses for some people.