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Mammals can absorb oxygen through their intestines

sciencemag.org

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Re: Mammals can absorb oxygen through their intestines

#71

Post by f6v »

creamynebula wrote: post #31
GordonS wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read a lot of medical research papers, and I've been thinking about this recently. Every time I read about a rat being "euthanized" or "sacrificed", when they have neuropathy induced by toxins, when they have limbs amputated, when they have their spine severed... I can't help but pause for a moment and think about that animal. I wonder if there are any good estimates of how many rats, rabbits, dogs and otherwise ar…

Other than a solid majority of people being aware of and actively against such practices, I don't see it.

That would cripple science for good and stop the progress. It’s either cancer patients or lab mice.

Re: Mammals can absorb oxygen through their intestines

#72

Post by keiferski »

david-gpu wrote: post #68
keiferski wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having read a bit about it, my position is something like: - Experiments are way too common and mostly have useless/unusable outcomes. - Ethical standards are basically nonexistent. - Limited animal testing for serious human conditions (cancer, disease, etc.) is justifiable if great care is taken to maximize the benefits and minimize animal suffering.

I am also all for protecting animals... until grandma is sick and could be cured only if we experiment a little more on rats. When that happens the life of a rat or a million looks disposable.

The thing is, the overwhelming majority of animal testing is not for saving grandma. It's for testing a new brand of makeup.

Re: Mammals can absorb oxygen through their intestines

#73

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

newsbinator wrote: post #24
keiferski wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is estimated that the annual use of vertebrate animals—from zebrafish to non-human primates—ranges from tens to more than 100 million.[2] In the European Union, vertebrate species represent 93% of animals used in research, and 11.5 million animals were used there in 2011. By one estimate the number of mice and rats used in the United States alone in 2001 was 80 million.[3] Mice, rats, fish, amphibians and reptil…

After all this time, I still have no idea how I feel about tortuous animal testing for medical breakthroughs. It's a trolley problem with an unknown number of people on Track A and an unknown number of animals on Track B. I don't even know how I feel about replacing animals in these experiments with human violent offenders. Can we justify experimenting on a known serial killer if the experiment will save a million ch…

Instead of punishing people for crimes they may have not committed (mistakes happen and innocent people go to jail way too often), why not allow altruistic people come forward as volunteers?

Re: Mammals can absorb oxygen through their intestines

#74

Post by tomcam »

newsbinator wrote: post #24
keiferski wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is estimated that the annual use of vertebrate animals—from zebrafish to non-human primates—ranges from tens to more than 100 million.[2] In the European Union, vertebrate species represent 93% of animals used in research, and 11.5 million animals were used there in 2011. By one estimate the number of mice and rats used in the United States alone in 2001 was 80 million.[3] Mice, rats, fish, amphibians and reptil…

After all this time, I still have no idea how I feel about tortuous animal testing for medical breakthroughs. It's a trolley problem with an unknown number of people on Track A and an unknown number of animals on Track B. I don't even know how I feel about replacing animals in these experiments with human violent offenders. Can we justify experimenting on a known serial killer if the experiment will save a million ch…

I would like to understand downvotes for what seemed like relevant, thoughtful questions posed in this comment.

Re: Mammals can absorb oxygen through their intestines

#75

Post by sateesh »

genericone wrote: post #58
Judgmentality wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hunch future generations will look back on our animal experimentation similar to how we look back on human experimentation, horrified but with a silver lining (and most people just prefer not to think about it much at all). I'm very much against both, but I recognize the important advances they've made for medicine. I also recognize that most of the advances for animals don't translate to humans, and some ev…

The japanese experiments on human beings were just as bad or worse: body part swaps, person merging, survival time studies for various death scenarios, there was a lot of extremely messed up stuff.

I recently read about Shirō Ishii, a Japaneese microbiologist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirō_Ishii) who conducted human experiments during World War-II which resulted in death of close to 10000 humans. More interestingly he was given immunity from war crimes in exchange for full disclosure about his experiments. And the information he provided was deemed invaluable. From the wiki

  it (experiment information) "could never have been 
  obtained in the United States because of scruples 
  attached to experiments on humans," and "the information 
  was obtained fairly cheaply."

Re: Mammals can absorb oxygen through their intestines

#76

Post by [deleted] »

willcipriano wrote: post #56
tines wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't worry, that willcipriano guy we experimented on and murdered was a known serial killer. Never mind that he was a political dissident or whatever."

This is a thought experiment in the real world you wouldn't know for a fact that ten million children would be saved or if the person is actually guilty but if you did the choice is unambiguous.

[deleted]

Re: Mammals can absorb oxygen through their intestines

#78

Post by rmah »

barbazoo wrote: post #38
newsbinator wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After all this time, I still have no idea how I feel about tortuous animal testing for medical breakthroughs. It's a trolley problem with an unknown number of people on Track A and an unknown number of animals on Track B. I don't even know how I feel about replacing animals in these experiments with human violent offenders. Can we justify experimenting on a known serial killer if the experiment will save a million ch…

> Can we justify experimenting on a known serial killer if the experiment will save a million children's lives in the next 10 years? Not in a civilized society with a rule of law

Any functioning society would gladly sacrifice a serial killer to save millions of innocent children.

Re: Mammals can absorb oxygen through their intestines

#79

Post by visarga »

rajin444 wrote: post #33
keiferski wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wait until genetic modification becomes available on the black market. Then things will get really interesting.

Maybe we'll finally start addressing real unearned privilege: genetic. Pro sports players didn't do anything to earn the genetic makeup which accounts for a significant portion of their ability, yet they aren't asked to acknowledge it and take steps to reduce its impact.

In the equality utopia the beautiful ones would have to wear masks, and the strong ones would have to wear weights. So everyone would be equal

Re: Mammals can absorb oxygen through their intestines

#80

Post by keiferski »

rajin444 wrote: post #33
keiferski wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just wait until genetic modification becomes available on the black market. Then things will get really interesting.

Maybe we'll finally start addressing real unearned privilege: genetic. Pro sports players didn't do anything to earn the genetic makeup which accounts for a significant portion of their ability, yet they aren't asked to acknowledge it and take steps to reduce its impact.

This sounds like the opening intro to a dystopian movie.
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