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Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

nytimes.com

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Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#671

Post by jaclaz »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #9

Its not black and white - we're not going for 100% security. Masks never did that anyway, and it wasn't the point in wearing them. The point was to change 'R0' to less than 1, so the epidemic wouldn't grow geometrically and swamp the healthcare system. It's quite reasonable to say that vaccinated people are less likely to spread the disease than say, an at-risk person wearing a mask. If those two are commensurate, th…

Yes - no matter how actually effective the use of (surgical) masks is - it is a symbol.

You see all people around you wearing masks, you wear a mask, these simple facts act as reminder that it is a pandemy, that you have to be careful about what you do (keep distance where possible, etc.) besides wearing the mask in itself.

Soon you will see lots of other poeople around you not wearing masks and you have no way to know if they are actually vaccinated (and probably in this case you are "safe") or if they are simply not wearing the mask because they ignore the recommendation or don't believe in masks or whatever (but they are not actually vaccinated so potentially "unsafe" if they come near you).

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#672

Post by rsfern »

Siira wrote: post #642
rsfern wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think most probably have a more nuanced position than that. My personal hesitation is that people are just going to ignore the explicit condition of full vaccination. Worst case outcome could result in dragging the pandemic out and providing opportunity for new variants to develop. A concern closer to home is that this will increase risk for my parents, who have been hesitant about the mRNA vaccines and refuse J&J…

Your parents are making their own tradeoffs. People need to accept responsibility for the tradeoffs they choose.

Yes, I agree.

The point is, how much does this new public health guidance depend on the assumption that people will accept the responsibility to either mask up or get vaccinated?

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#673

Post by antientropic »

bourgwaletariat wrote: post #469
dimator wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the citation I found for this claim: https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/04/06/the-cdc-now-recommend... Overall, science is a process. If research came out that changed the recommendations, well, that's how science works. This is no different in my mind than the gradual change in the recommendations towards cigarette smoking over the decades, only in this case it played out over weeks and months (that article wa…

Do you actually remember this in real time? Do you remember at the beginning when everyone was wondering what to do and they said wear a mask and then they said not wear a mask and everyone around you was like, "What?? What is going on??" And then a short while later they said wear a mask again. These things have real world ramifications. You can't just point to a snopes a year later and retain the context within whi…

> People have memories.

And sometimes they have false memories. For example, regarding:

> 8 Months ago Kamala Harris herself said she would NOT get Trump's Vaccine.

What she said was that she would take the vaccine if the professionals said it was safe, not if Trump told her to take it [1]. A rather understandable level of skepticism given Trump's peddling of miracle cures such as hydroxychloroquine.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dAjCeMuXR0

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#674

Post by ianai »

anonymouse008 wrote: post #667
ianai wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vaccine keys your immune system on a mostly unchanging part of the virus. It’s such a key part of the virus that for the virus to mutate that part it would be a dramatically different and less deadly mutation. In an infection your body randomly keys on any of a large number of characteristics of the virus. Those almost certainly will be less lasting than the vaccine. That’s why to get the vaccine.

So I guess my hesitation is, if my body has already been keyed by the original virus, had a terrible viral load (was positive for longer than I ever imagined), but very few symptoms... I’m fairly proud of my immune response and personally am wondering why I should take aim with a direct mRNA shot, feels unnecessary.

Here’s a discussion with how it all works and relevant links (edit: though I wish there were more sources there. Reader will have to do some work themselves): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27125871

There’s some positing that the vaccine could help or totally stop so-called long covid symptoms. My mom had some long covid symptoms and hasn’t since she got the vaccine.

Also from the link, second exposures to infectious diseases seriously boost the immune systems ability to fight the disease.

It’s like training your immune system once with the exposure and original infection then a second (and third time for Moderna and pfizer) time with the vaccines. In the mRNA vaccine case, they train on a particularly optimal characteristic.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#675

Post by wyldfire »

nobody9999 wrote: post #339
wyldfire wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't have super strong passions here. But reverting to fashion norms seems pretty appropriate, once it's safe. If it's not safe now, when would it be? People do take a lot of cues from facial expressions and at least in "the West" we rarely wear face coverings. So there's definitely some (mild?) cost to wearing the mask, too. I will say this, though -- organizations that insist on compelling others to wear masks o…

>organizations that insist on compelling others to wear masks outdoors Which organizations might those be? State and local governments? At least in the US, there are more than 50 states/territories, hundreds of cities and more than 3,000 counties. Each of which has separate authority for public health issues. That said, many (perhaps most?) of those entities have been following the CDC guidelines. Those have now chan…

> Which organizations might those be? State and local governments?

No, thankfully I think they're probably making mostly good recommendations there. I'm thinking of stuff like outdoor soccer - parents are asked to wear masks in a big open field with no crowds.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#676

Post by wyldfire »

wallacoloo wrote: post #305
stjohnswarts wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if the feds offered $100 to get vaccinated that uptake would go way up.

Or it could give people who are already suspect of government more reason to avoid the vaccine. A stranger on the sidewalk is giving away free cookies. If in addition they offer $100 to each person who eats one, does that make me more, or less likely to accept a cookie?

Poor analogy. The public at large has a vested interest in high vaccination rates.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#677

Post by shlant »

janto wrote: post #534
shlant wrote: post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So yes it has lost its credibility. I feel like this black and white, "you get one chance" kind of bridge burning is very unproductive. When you look at these agencies not as omniscient entities but as what they are - a collaborative effort of many individuals - then you allow for the evolution of understanding. People can be wrong, especially in regards to more novel situations, so why should we view our instituti…

Organisations of professions should be held to extremely high standards. They are entrusted with more and in return given more privileges than any simple "collection of people".

as I said, it makes sense to expect more from governmental bodies but that still does not mean an expectation of infallibility. High standards and impossible standards are worlds apart.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#678

Post by tidydata »

iso1210 wrote: post #449
cycomanic wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can give you an example, if you want information to get out and spread quickly, do you 1. put it on your website and wait until people notice it and dissiminate it or 2. Let the main information "spreaders" know in advance so they can prepare articles (possibly do some interviews) etc? Which do you think reaches more people in a given time?

You post on your website, somebody notices, 'spreaders' race to get faulty quick copy out (better fast than right), gives the conspiracy theorists a headstart as people start looking for more detail. Or you issue an embargoed release, allowing responsible 'spreaders' to get their ducks in a row, and then cometh the hour, cometh the copy-edited verbose well referenced pieces. The latter is far better than the former.

This model gives government the power of choosing who is and is not a “trusted source” and depends on a relationship where those sources report uncritically about the information they are being given. It is also prioritizing which (for-profit) business gets favorable access.

From a practicality perspective it makes sense. From a propaganda perspective it’s chilling.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#679

Post by brighton36 »

XorNot wrote: post #383
brighton36 wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lets wait to see what the economic impacts of this fear culture brings, before announcing there are no casualties.

"Culture of fear" is Fox News raison d'etre for existing. The idea that wearing a mask is at the forefront of this issue is laughable.

That may be. Yet, you see it.

Re: Vaccinated Americans now may go without masks in most places, the CDC said

#680

Post by ZeroGravitas »

varjag wrote: post #664
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #651

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trust in the CDC and Fauci only really declined among Republican voters (and was still high). Sometimes, certain people being told not to trust you is a sign you're doing the right thing.

Inefficacy of masks is a central point in anti-maskers message, and sometimes they would cite you the whole passages from official WHO/CDC advisories. And the belated reversal is just an additional point to "scientists don't know shit" attitude. No, yeah it did tremendous damage. While there'd certainly be anti maskers without anti-mask hysteria by authorities, the scale would not be the same. It's hard to quantify b…

"anti-mask hysteria by authorities"?

People were having difficulty providing evidence that Fauci admitted to telling a white lie elsewhere in these comments, yet it's widely believed by certain people that he did so.

There's a link to a factcheck in the comments that quotes what he actually said and it's not at all what many people in this thread seem to sincerely, but mistakenly, think he said.

So allow me to doubt that "anti-mask hysteria" was ever coming from the medical and scientific community unless I see exactly what you're talking about and evaluate it with my own eyes.

But I guess if we disagree on the facts, that helps explain why we draw different conclusions.

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