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Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

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Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#131
post #3

"not wittingly" [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEh-l_G1Gcs

Can't watch because I am at work but the NSA conducts foreign surveillance. If a foreign target talks to a US citizen that's "unwittingly" surveiling a US citizen. Do you believe that it's alright for the NSA to conduct surveillance on foreign threats?

Are you saying that the NSA has a different definition of wittingly than the standard definition of wittingly?

If you have a bug placed on someone's purse and they talk to others, you are wittingly surveilling them. Unwittingly would imply it was not foreseen that others would be spied on (e.g. placing a wiretap on the wrong phone number).

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#132
post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think most people don't care much about privacy for themselves ("I have nothing to hide") and are happy to let military intelligence daddy read their emails, as long as it doesn't affect their life. I'd point out that the DoD is purchasing this data from private entities, not collecting it themselves. As such, I'd say that it's less about government surveillance specifically, and more about surveillance in general…

Corporate data collection doesn’t generally send the police or military to your house when you sufficiently challenge the status quo. Corporations don’t generally have guns or handcuffs that they can use on arbitrary people. The state does, which is why there’s such a danger associated with them being able to access the data. Experian doesn’t have a torture chamber. The Chicago PD and the CIA do.

>Corporations don’t generally have guns or handcuffs that they can use on arbitrary people. The state does, which is why there’s such a danger associated with them being able to access the data.

And that makes it perfectly fine for corporations to do so? Because they can't rough you up or arrest you?

Please.

As I said:

  ...complaining about big, bad government (which
  isn't wrong, but just a tiny portion of the 
  larger issue)
My point (apparently, I wasn't explicit enough) was that it's not just governments that are the issue. What's more, if there were appropriate restrictions on collecting and monetizing peoples' data, in this case the DoD would have nothing to buy.

It's much easier (at least in the US) to restrain the Federal government than hundreds (thousands?) of corporations, regardless of their monopoly on the use of force.

Railing against the government for compromising the privacy of its citizens is absolutely appropriate. That said, there is the much, much more widespread issue of corporate surveillance that should also be addressed.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#133
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Bush II and then Snowden, is just how little human beings really care about mass surveillance. I'm struggling to think of a single negative thing that I can directly associate with mass surveillance in the US. Certainly nothing bad has happened to me personally or anyone that I know because of it. So no one cares because it doesn't impact anyone's lives.

Here's one negative thing you can now associate with mass surveillance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

The problem is that most ordinary people view that as a positive, not a negative.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#134

Unsurprising, but still disappointing. Actually I'm glad someone is trying to hold them accountable. It seems silly tho that we need to pass a law to uphold what's already written into the constitution. It highlights that the constitution only has teeth in some legal contexts, primarily where a court case is being heard on a citizen being prosecuted. Conditionality seems to not have any bearing on preventing agencies…

it is often stated that locks are not for honest people, but to keep dishonest people out.

can be applied to US constitution as additional laws needed not for those who WANT to uphold the US constitution but those who want to violate it.

Most of you probably already saw a Michigan-congress rep submit a bill to violate the US constitution by trying to force twitter posters to register with Michigan to post facts because he wanted to prevent others from outing him in the form of fact checking.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is powerless if people ignore it. Indeed we just had a bit of a lesson in the recent past which showed exactly how dependent our country is (and probably most other countries as well) on shared values and tradition. The Constitution isn't all-powerful as a piece of paper, its real power is as an idea.

The real power is consensus in an idea. Hopefully that idea is good but ultimately, you need critical mass to accept an idea or reject it. If people in the US really want to grab back power to the citizens of this country it can be done (peacefully even). All it really takes is a large enough consensus of voters to upend all the garbage we're being subjected to. The issue is that the consensus is more difficult to re…

> If people in the US really want to grab back power to the citizens of this country it can be done

This can go either way, of course. We're sort of in between a rock and hard place. American oligarchs are guiding the country toward a 21st century brand of serfdom. The tyranny of the mob doesn't seem like a better alternative. You might expect the so-called Benedict Option to succeed, much like it did in the so-called Dark Ages.

> The issue is that the consensus is more difficult to reach due to the scale of the US voter population combined with tactics like gerrymandering and overall difficulty of orchestrating movements to support ideals most people seem to support (which isn't oppressing a minority unless we classify power and wealth hungry individuals as a protected minority which we currently seem to do).

These same oligarchs also employ psychological warfare to divide and occupy the populace. For example, all the recent race conflict? A total fabrication because the establishment is feeling the heat and the pressure of rising awareness. Racial conflict is a dependable tactic that has worked before. Sexual liberation is another form of political control. Get people addicted to porn and masturbation, unleash sex from the confines of marriage, divorce it from its procreative end, and you have a mass of people staring at their genitals and obsessing over orgasms as if it were the rapture (hilariously and tragically enough, rates of sexual intercourse are dropping and rates of ED in men are rising). Similar things can be said of the other cardinal vices. Whip up envy and people are kept busy envying each other. All this makes them easier to control. A man has as many masters as he has vices. That's why "sexual liberation" is such an oxymoron. "Sexual enslavement" is more fitting. The legalization of drugs is likely another weapon in the oligarchic arsenal. Get people doing drugs instead of facing their problems, growing in reason and virtue (and therefore freedom), and repairing the ills of the culture beginning with themselves. Get them to escape into myriad diversions, entertainment, and bullshit causes. Whip up emotions and sensationalize. Have then at each other's throats in the throes of wrath. Where two are fighting, a third profits.

> Reaching consensus amongst citizens is far far more difficult these days,

And why is that? Because the cultural and civilizational underpinnings of the West are disintegrating. So many things that to so many seemed so minor have been the thin ends of a wedge. Over time, they weakened the principles and the tradition that marked their continuity. The withering of classical education means that tradition, in practice, became reduced to mere convention, leaving people vulnerable to revolution and moral corruption. It means you have no defense against the unfolding of the consequences of liberal philosophy and modernism which now puts you in the defensive position.

> It doesn't help that those in power actively try and divide the general voter population and set us against one another making it even more difficult to reach a consensus.

And there it is. Libido dominandi, the lust for power.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#136
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would they get a prison sentence for legally buying information that the private sector can also buy?

You can hire a PI legally. A police chief hiring a PI to bypass warrant restrictions would rightfully be in deep shit for it.

You seem to be implying that the PI has additional powers. It's quite the opposite. Any search that a PI can legally do can also be done by legally by the police. Police have access to government sources of data that PIs do not, can collaborate with other departments, and can detain people (under the right circumstances).

The chief might get in trouble, but usually that has to do with policies against using external resources or for budget constraints.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#137

Unsurprising, but still disappointing. Actually I'm glad someone is trying to hold them accountable. It seems silly tho that we need to pass a law to uphold what's already written into the constitution. It highlights that the constitution only has teeth in some legal contexts, primarily where a court case is being heard on a citizen being prosecuted. Conditionality seems to not have any bearing on preventing agencies…

The Constitution is just a piece of paper. It is powerless if people ignore it. It's the same with presidents, kings, and dictators. If people just stopped doing what they said, they become nothing. There's an incident in Soviet history where Stalin was sure they were coming to arrest and execute him. He was shaking and completely powerless. But they were just coming to affirm his power. The Arab Spring came about be…

This reminds me of the tension between the Confucians and the Legalists in ancient Chinese Philosophy; as well as Étienne de La Boétie with his [1] Discourse on Voluntary Servitude.

The Legalists believed that if you had good laws then the rest would take care of itself. They "advocated government by a system of laws that rigidly prescribed punishments and rewards for specific behaviours. They stressed the direction of all human activity toward the goal of increasing the power of the ruler and the state."[2]

But the Confucians, particularly Mencius, pointed out that good men would create the good laws; while bad men would corrupt good laws. The laws were important for the ordering of society but insufficient. i.e. : "The sage-kings of antiquity are a model, but one cannot simply adopt their customs and institutions and expect to govern effectively (4A1). Instead, one must emulate the sage-kings both in terms of outer structures (good laws, wise policies, correct rituals) and in terms of inner motivations (placing ren and yi first). Like Confucius, Mencius places an enormous amount of confidence in the capacity of the ordinary person to respond to an extraordinary ruler, so as to put the world in order." [3]

To borrow from the Confucians; the Constitution is a product of good men and good laws to help protect goodness and order in society, but without good men to continue to have a living embodiment of the principles, it is still just a law that can be corrupted or ignored.

A beautiful quote from Etienne that you reminded me of is this, where he advocates to simply stop supporting tyrants: "Resolve to serve no more, and you are at once freed. I do not ask that you place hands upon the tyrant to topple him over, but simply that you support him no longer; then you will behold him, like a great Colossus whose pedestal has been pulled away, fall of his own weight and break in pieces."

Tyrants only have power because people choose to follow.

[1] https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Discourse_on_Voluntary_Servit...

[2] https://www.britannica.com/topic/Legalism#:~:text=The%20Lega....

[3] https://iep.utm.edu/mencius/

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#138
post #81

The thing I still can't fathom, all these years after Bush II and then Snowden, is just how little human beings really care about mass surveillance. Yeah, the Snowden leaks made a splash, but the media cycle turned over a couple weeks later and everyone moved onto other things. It's like, if you're of a certain age, you had to read 1984 or whatever in school. You'd think "well, no one would stand for that sort of thi…

I think most people don't care much about privacy for themselves ("I have nothing to hide") and are happy to let military intelligence daddy read their emails, as long as it doesn't affect their life. They remain ignorant of the fact that this means that people who actually do need privacy for purposes of organization against the harmful elements of the status quo (civil rights leaders, labor leaders, political party…

Not caring about privacy because you have nothing to hide is like not caring about free speech because you have nothing to say.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#139

Unsurprising, but still disappointing. Actually I'm glad someone is trying to hold them accountable. It seems silly tho that we need to pass a law to uphold what's already written into the constitution. It highlights that the constitution only has teeth in some legal contexts, primarily where a court case is being heard on a citizen being prosecuted. Conditionality seems to not have any bearing on preventing agencies…

it is often stated that locks are not for honest people, but to keep dishonest people out. can be applied to US constitution as additional laws needed not for those who WANT to uphold the US constitution but those who want to violate it. Most of you probably already saw a Michigan-congress rep submit a bill to violate the US constitution by trying to force twitter posters to register with Michigan to post facts becau…

Isn't it the other way around?

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#140
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Law is primarily about voluntary submission, not power. Let me know how that works out for you, k? I can assure you that although state power ultimately comes from the people, the state most definitely will enforce its laws against you, should you break them. That is, unless you're rich and powerful enough to afford the best lawyers and a handful of legislators.

The state is rarely capable of enforcing the law on more than a small minority of lawbreakers because enforcing the law is expensive. If there's a busy road where people are routinely speeding, the state is actually incapable of pulling every single speeder over and ticketing them. Instead, the state relies on setting reasonable speed limits and scaring drivers with the prospect of fines. This isn't a personal philos…

We now have speed cameras and semi automatic citations.
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