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Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

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Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#101

Post by salawat »

c3534l wrote: post #46
clairity wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'd go one step further and prohibit our government from surveilling any non-governmental foreigner without an auditable warrant, and strictly prohibit corporations with heavy sanctions from sharing any non-governmental surveillance with the government whatsoever (on top of existing privacy laws of course). the government should be in service, not in command, of the people.

The government only has the powers granted to it by the constitution. If the power for the executive to unilaterally conduct searches was not given to it, then it doesn't have it. Just because it doesn't say the government can't surveil foreigners doesn't mean they can - it has to specifically say the government is granted the right to surveil foreigners. And there's really very little reason to think that a power ne…

Note: military surveillance should notcross with Law Enforcement surveillance.

They are two different things in the eyes of the judiciary.

The military can get away with surveillance under the mandate of defending the United States from all threats, foreign and domestic.

The product of that surveillance, however, is not permissible as far as I know in a court of law unless it's specifically UCMJ.

Not a lawyer though. If one is around willing to enlighten us on this odd question, it'd be much obliged.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#102

Post by clairity »

c3534l wrote: post #46
clairity wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i'd go one step further and prohibit our government from surveilling any non-governmental foreigner without an auditable warrant, and strictly prohibit corporations with heavy sanctions from sharing any non-governmental surveillance with the government whatsoever (on top of existing privacy laws of course). the government should be in service, not in command, of the people.

The government only has the powers granted to it by the constitution. If the power for the executive to unilaterally conduct searches was not given to it, then it doesn't have it. Just because it doesn't say the government can't surveil foreigners doesn't mean they can - it has to specifically say the government is granted the right to surveil foreigners. And there's really very little reason to think that a power ne…

i'd also generally agree with this, but not everyone does, so let's spell it out more clearly, even if somewhat redundantly.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#103

Post by pope_meat »

treis wrote: post #80
maybelsyrup wrote: post #30

The thing I still can't fathom, all these years after Bush II and then Snowden, is just how little human beings really care about mass surveillance. Yeah, the Snowden leaks made a splash, but the media cycle turned over a couple weeks later and everyone moved onto other things. It's like, if you're of a certain age, you had to read 1984 or whatever in school. You'd think "well, no one would stand for that sort of thi…

> Bush II and then Snowden, is just how little human beings really care about mass surveillance. I'm struggling to think of a single negative thing that I can directly associate with mass surveillance in the US. Certainly nothing bad has happened to me personally or anyone that I know because of it. So no one cares because it doesn't impact anyone's lives.

Here's one negative thing you can now associate with mass surveillance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#104

Post by slibhb »

babesh wrote: post #27
billytetrud wrote: post #2

Unsurprising, but still disappointing. Actually I'm glad someone is trying to hold them accountable. It seems silly tho that we need to pass a law to uphold what's already written into the constitution. It highlights that the constitution only has teeth in some legal contexts, primarily where a court case is being heard on a citizen being prosecuted. Conditionality seems to not have any bearing on preventing agencies…

Surveillance is a form of power. Power does not give up power. Law is enforced via power. When it meets a greater power then the law is contravened. Look at the US and how it broke international law to force a plane down that it thought had Snowden.

Law is primarily about voluntary submission, not power. A law that is followed only as long as it is enforced is not much of a law and is unlikely to last.

In terms of your broader point, something about restricting the authority of a law-giving entity via the law seems paradoxical. An example of this paradox is the fact that it's difficult to have standing to sue the government over an illegal spying program that is classified.

The best we seem to be able to do is the future-government holding the past-government accountable.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#105

Post by epberry »

We should all be grateful that Senator Wyden has been a champion for these issues. I like to watch him in hearings and it's clear he's one of the most well prepared questioners on issues of privacy and liberty. To the staff of his office, if you're seeing this comment section - thank you!

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#106

Post by topkai22 »

giantg2 wrote: post #37
freshair wrote: post #12

Until high ranking government officials start getting very length prison sentences for this sort of shit, I doubt it will ever get better.

Why would they get a prison sentence for legally buying information that the private sector can also buy?

Also with the legal precedent from the Supreme Court that telecom metadata IS not protected by the 4th amendment? It is NOT clear from the article that what is doing is legally unconstitutional, as much as I might personally disagree with the Judicial branch's current view.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#107

Post by auiya »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #7
java-man wrote: post #3

"not wittingly" [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEh-l_G1Gcs

Can't watch because I am at work but the NSA conducts foreign surveillance. If a foreign target talks to a US citizen that's "unwittingly" surveiling a US citizen. Do you believe that it's alright for the NSA to conduct surveillance on foreign threats?

> Do you believe that it's alright for the NSA to conduct surveillance on foreign threats?

Whether anyone believes it's okay to do or not is irrelevant, the NSA is charged to conduct foreign intelligence surveillance by US law, and does so accordingly.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#108

Post by sophacles »

rayiner wrote: post #75
tsimionescu wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The text of the US constitution explicitly talks about the rights of people, not citizens - so I would argue that the constitution itself has always prohibited this. However, there is a long history of interpreting 'people' to mean specific groups - from only white people to only citizens.

> The text of the US constitution explicitly talks about the rights of people, not citizens - so I would argue that the constitution itself has always prohibited this. No, it talks about "the people." As in the preamble: "We the People of the United States." > However, there is a long history of interpreting 'people' to mean specific groups - from only white people to only citizens. Playing with the interpretation of…

The first half of your post contradicts the second half of your post.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#109

Post by kemitchell »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #34

I don't like how this article buries the important parts of this story. There is good reason to think that this surveillance by public info is legal currently, there was a court ruling stating that's the case. A law is necessary to codify that this practice is a violation Fourth Amendment, and Wyden is currently one of a handful of senators trying to get it passed. The story eventually mentions this, but the beginnin…

I'm not familiar with any such ruling. Which do you have in mind?

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#110

Post by kmonsen »

splithalf wrote: post #51
babesh wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surveillance is a form of power. Power does not give up power. Law is enforced via power. When it meets a greater power then the law is contravened. Look at the US and how it broke international law to force a plane down that it thought had Snowden.

Would you prefer no laws? Seems we benefit from them no?

That is one of the largest straw men I have ever seen.
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