Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals • Hacker News Board

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#31

Post by MikeUt » Thu, May 13, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #7

java-man wrote: post #3

"not wittingly" [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEh-l_G1Gcs

Can't watch because I am at work but the NSA conducts foreign surveillance. If a foreign target talks to a US citizen that's "unwittingly" surveiling a US citizen. Do you believe that it's alright for the NSA to conduct surveillance on foreign threats?

But the NSA did collect data on hundreds of millions of US citizens, knew about it, and lied about it to congress and the US people. That is the exact opposite of "unwittingly". That is the action of a domestic threat that has escaped democratic and even government control.

> "Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of millions of Americans?" He responded, "No, sir." Wyden asked "It does not?" and Clapper said, "Not wittingly. There are cases where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly."

> The order, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, requires Verizon on an "ongoing, daily basis" to give the NSA information on all telephone calls in its systems, both within the US and between the US and other countries: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/06/nsa-phone-reco...

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#32

Post by edoceo » Thu, May 13, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

babesh wrote: post #27

billytetrud wrote: post #2

Unsurprising, but still disappointing. Actually I'm glad someone is trying to hold them accountable. It seems silly tho that we need to pass a law to uphold what's already written into the constitution. It highlights that the constitution only has teeth in some legal contexts, primarily where a court case is being heard on a citizen being prosecuted. Conditionality seems to not have any bearing on preventing agencies…

Surveillance is a form of power. Power does not give up power. Law is enforced via power. When it meets a greater power then the law is contravened. Look at the US and how it broke international law to force a plane down that it thought had Snowden.

Huh, TIL..

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incide...

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#33

Post by dzonga » Thu, May 13, 2021, 7:31 PM UTC

nickysielicki wrote: post #14

ssklash wrote: post #4

I knew before even reading that the senator would be Ron Wyden. He's a treasure and the most tech-literate politician I know of. Oregon is lucky to have him, and we could use a lot more like him.

Respectfully, the most tech-literate politician is without a doubt Thomas Massie, who went to MIT for both his undergrad in electrical engineering and his masters in mechanical engineering, who formed a decently successful startup working on novel computer input mechanisms. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Massie#Early_life,_educ...

reminds me of the politicians in my native country. very well educated either lawyers, engineers or doctors. but idiots and corrupt.

I would rather have a non degreed non corrupt politician.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#34

Post by boomboomsubban » Thu, May 13, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

I don't like how this article buries the important parts of this story. There is good reason to think that this surveillance by public info is legal currently, there was a court ruling stating that's the case.

A law is necessary to codify that this practice is a violation Fourth Amendment, and Wyden is currently one of a handful of senators trying to get it passed.

The story eventually mentions this, but the beginning focus on confidentiality makes it seem like they're hiding evidence of their crime.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#35

Post by maybelsyrup » Thu, May 13, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

babesh wrote: post #27

billytetrud wrote: post #2

Unsurprising, but still disappointing. Actually I'm glad someone is trying to hold them accountable. It seems silly tho that we need to pass a law to uphold what's already written into the constitution. It highlights that the constitution only has teeth in some legal contexts, primarily where a court case is being heard on a citizen being prosecuted. Conditionality seems to not have any bearing on preventing agencies…

Surveillance is a form of power. Power does not give up power. Law is enforced via power. When it meets a greater power then the law is contravened. Look at the US and how it broke international law to force a plane down that it thought had Snowden.

1000x this. It's so unusual to talk plainly about power, but that's really what it's all about.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#36

Post by adventured » Thu, May 13, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

atatatat wrote: post #25

adventured wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They mean making it into the White House I believe. Ron Paul would certainly attempt to dismantle it, and he'd fail miserably (he'd never win election to begin with though). The larger confusion on the part of the parent is thinking the President is in charge of much of anything or has the power to dismantle any of these deep state perma structures that have been built up in the post WW2 era; these are structures tha…

> he'd never win election to begin with though How do you persevere in the face of this type of media blacklisting? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMdrwhDoZjQ

I didn't watch your link (I rarely follow stray YouTube links). However regarding Ron Paul, I don't envy what he has endured in his lifetime from moronic opponents on both sides of the political aisle. The YouTube video of him being harangued & attacked by zombie anti-drug zealots on the Morton Downey Jr show is enough to feel sorry for him for a lifetime.

Persevere, though? Anyone that dares to tell the truth today is begging for a blacklisting. That's what building the big tech censorship systems is all about (which will be America's version of the great firewall), being able to dictate what the supposed truth is for any given topic at any given moment in time. It's a martyrs game, telling the truth, I assume Ron Paul has known that for a long time.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#37

Post by giantg2 » Thu, May 13, 2021, 7:38 PM UTC

freshair wrote: post #12

Until high ranking government officials start getting very length prison sentences for this sort of shit, I doubt it will ever get better.

Why would they get a prison sentence for legally buying information that the private sector can also buy?

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#38

Post by vlan0 » Thu, May 13, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

atatatat wrote: post #25

adventured wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They mean making it into the White House I believe. Ron Paul would certainly attempt to dismantle it, and he'd fail miserably (he'd never win election to begin with though). The larger confusion on the part of the parent is thinking the President is in charge of much of anything or has the power to dismantle any of these deep state perma structures that have been built up in the post WW2 era; these are structures tha…

> he'd never win election to begin with though How do you persevere in the face of this type of media blacklisting? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fMdrwhDoZjQ

Yep. We saw it with Andrew Yang as well. Either being left out completely, or media outlets taking about 'him' without actually saying his name.

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#39

Post by maybelsyrup » Thu, May 13, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #7

java-man wrote: post #3

"not wittingly" [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEh-l_G1Gcs

Can't watch because I am at work but the NSA conducts foreign surveillance. If a foreign target talks to a US citizen that's "unwittingly" surveiling a US citizen. Do you believe that it's alright for the NSA to conduct surveillance on foreign threats?

> Do you believe that it's alright for the NSA to conduct surveillance on foreign threats?

I like this question, but I think there's a better one: "do you believe it's alright for the NSA to exist?"

Re: Pentagon surveilling Americans without a warrant, Senator Wyden reveals

#40

Post by GartzenDeHaes » Thu, May 13, 2021, 7:45 PM UTC

A warrant is not required for the government to purchase commercial data products and there are plenty of legitimate uses for this kind of data. Security analytics would seem to be an obvious use case for netflow data, for example. Commercial datasets are also used for address correction and standardization and most government agencies routinely do.