Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue • Hacker News Board

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#341

Post by gadders » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

elliekelly wrote: post #161

Fern_Blossom wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take: Stop thinking of lobbying as a corporate only tool and understand the system was devised as a way for specialized interested (technocratic) to influence congress in an efficient and informed way. The lobbyist system is open to all by purpose. The real problem: the general public doesn't actually give a shit about wiping its own ass when it comes to dealing with their own government. Whose fault is it when y…

Okay then go to K Street and hire yourself a lobbyist. Unless you know someone or have a lot of money under your control you won’t even be able to get a meeting. Your suggestion is as ridiculous as telling the average person to “just ask the Fed for money” when they can’t make rent. If you truly believe the system is equally “open to all” then you have bought the bullshit lobbyists have been selling the public hook,…

Reminds me of this story from The Onion:

American People Hire High-Powered Lobbyist To Push Interests In Congress

"WASHINGTON—Citing a desire to gain influence in Washington, the American people confirmed Friday that they have hired high-powered D.C. lobbyist Jack Weldon of the firm Patton Boggs to help advance their agenda in Congress.

Known among Beltway insiders for his ability to sway public policy on behalf of massive corporations such as Johnson & Johnson, Monsanto, and AT&T, Weldon, 53, is expected to use his vast network of political connections to give his new client a voice in the legislative process."

https://politics.theonion.com/american-people-hire-high-powe...

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

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Post by rattray » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #336

rattray wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their responsibility to "the taxpayer" is a few orders of magnitude less acute than their responsibility to the owners of the company they've been hired to manage.

I completely disagree, but I don't really know how to debate such a fundamental thing. It's such a weird philosophy to put your job over your society. I understand it's common, but it's weird. You can find a new job, but you can't find a new planet.

I just don't want to leave climate change up to the whims of strangers.

If you're in business, you compete with people who put their jobs before society, so you don't really have much choice. Call that a race to the bottom if you want, but it's a race – and races need rules.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

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Post by Mauricebranagh » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

throwaway2037 wrote: post #320

carlob wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Real question for OP (and others): What do you think is a reasonable effective income tax rate? (Please do not confuse effective and nominal tax rates!) In my view: "All in" should be about 50-55%. When I say "all in" I mean absolutely everything -- federal, state, local, national pension, national health (if applicable), yada yada yada. That would mean top 1% still have net income (after taxes) of more than 200K U…

+9000 votes! I agree 110%. I didn't say it, but the 50-55% "all-in" should also include capital gains receiving no special treatment for high-income people.

Which special treatment is this ?

Might be more sensible to give smallish tax breaks for CGT to ordinary workers and reform the taxation of worker share options no more crippling tax bills for worthless options.

Id also encourage listed companies to offer UK style share saves to all workers to allow those lower down the food chain to actually get some equity.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

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Post by burkaman » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

esyir wrote: post #276

burkaman wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Becoming a CEO does not magically make your responsibility to society disappear. Shareholders are an additional thing you need to worry about, not the only thing. > stop vilifying people for making money Why? They're doing it in a vile way.

I'll put it a different way. Most people don't see issues with that, they see issues with shit legislation. You want an effective method? Provide a negative incentive to correct that. Its far more effective to do that. Talking about how we should get them to change their morality may give us the feel goods, but that's about all it'll do.

But why would you want the law to change if you don't have a problem with what they're doing? Honestly I don't think you're right about what "most people" think. I can't remember ever seeing a protest about the tax code, but there was a global social movement about vilifying immoral corporations.

And frankly I think it's more effective. If you try to argue about tax policy, it's easy for a well-educated opponent to kind of dazzle you with cherry-picked stats and economic models and say "well actually this lower corporate rate is better for the economy, just look at these graphs". Anyone can find a credentialed economist to back up their position. It's much harder to look at someone straight-faced and say "actually greed is good" and "we would go bankrupt immediately if we had to pay a single extra cent in taxes". I mean they try, and it works on some people, but not as many. And whatever issue can get the most widespread agreement is the one most likely to spark some change.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

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Post by nvilcins » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:42 PM UTC

dontreact wrote: post #335

slver wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You write laws and tell companies to follow strictly the letter of the law or else. And that's precisely what they do. The problem doesn't sit at the companies.

Laws get written with a lot of help and influence from lobbyists who do sit at the companies.

What about explicitly bringing up and fighting that mechanism in the first place?

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

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Post by boringg » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:45 PM UTC

bnjms wrote: post #213

IdontRememberIt wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buffett always complains that he did not pay enough tax. He could simply wire 50% of his fortune to the IRS. His secretary had no choice. (End of sarcasm) They should donate to a foundation. They should not have link with it (direct or indirect ). Their family (direct or indirect) should not have link with it (direct or indirect ). The problem with these structures is that they allow someone to control and directly b…

This argument gets played frequently but it misses the a point. Buffet is not complaining that he has not been able to send enough money to the government he is complaining that the system has no way to take the money from people like him. It’s is meaningless to send more money as the complaint is about the system and how it deals with the overall group he is a part of. The consistent criticism is that Buffet has not…

I think by the very nature of saying that he should be taxed more is sufficient enough. Why would anyone pay money to lobbyists to then have to pay more taxes. He provided political cover and conversation around it. Sufficient enough IMO. Ridiculous to think he would spend money to increase his own tax burden - if people can't get it done themselves than that's on them.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

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Post by boringg » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #298

bnjms wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This argument gets played frequently but it misses the a point. Buffet is not complaining that he has not been able to send enough money to the government he is complaining that the system has no way to take the money from people like him. It’s is meaningless to send more money as the complaint is about the system and how it deals with the overall group he is a part of. The consistent criticism is that Buffet has not…

I’m sorry what? Buffet shouldn’t have just cut the IRS a check for $2B because it’s “meaningless to just send the money”? So unless all the pieces are in place there is no value in paying the amount in taxes you publicly claim you should pay? That’s like saying alcohol should be illegal, but drinking all the time. “Well, there is no point in me not drinking, the point is to change the law”. That makes zero sense.

Disagree. Why would you arbitrarily pay the IRS money if you didn't owe them anything. It would put himself in a weaker competitive position against his competitors and for what benefit?

I completely disagree with you. The move should be to change the system.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

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Post by boringg » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:50 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #124

dnautics wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the real thing is that Buffet knows that wiring your fortune to the IRS is a perilously stupid way to do good with your money; just statistically such a huge chunk of that will go to, say, bombing children halfway around the world, bureaucracies that spend money better than actually provide healthcare, and anti-poverty programs that are better at lining the pockets of 'social entrepreneurs' that are better at…

It’s fine if he thinks it’s stupid, but then he shouldn’t complain that he doesn’t pay enough either as if only he could pay more then he would do so. BS! I don’t have a problem with the guy or with his wealth, but the whole “oh but if they’d only tax me” thing is infuriating. Hell, he could just endow any number of non-Ivy League schools and pay for kids to go to college.

I have a genuine question do you know what Buffets philanthropies do or his plans with his wealth? Or are you just reacting to talking points?

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

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Post by aweiland » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:51 PM UTC

slver wrote: post #337

dontreact wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws get written with a lot of help and influence from lobbyists who do sit at the companies.

Let's get couple of things straight: 1. Politicians are responsible for the laws. 2. Companies are responsible for following the laws. If you have a beef with any of the above, address the right parties. How they interact and depend on each other is a fact, but also it's not relevant to the above two points. Everyone has a clear responsibility. Furthermore the phrase "dodged taxes" means "they structured their revenu…

ALEC literally writes "model bills" written by industry and are submitted word-for-word by politicians.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

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Post by horsawlarway » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

MrPowers wrote: post #308

> In 2019, Uber claimed $4.5 billion in global operating losses (excluding the US and China) for tax purposes – in reality, it brought in $5.8 billion in operating revenue This sentence makes me feel like the article author does not understand the difference between profit and revenue. The wording makes it seem like there is something nefarious about being a loss making company. Uber's global 2020 revenue was 11 bill…

Sure, but tax breaks themselves are often fixed.

Buying stock options is a great example of where you might end up with a fixed tax break.

Buy 1000 options at your strike price ex: $1, pay tax on their current estimated value (say the value is estimated at $100, you pay tax on (100 - 1) * 1000 = $99,000 of "value" that you gained, probably about 20k).

2 years later: Boom, company goes out of business. That stock valued at 99k was actually worth 0k, but you paid taxes on 99k.

So now you can write off approximately $3,500 (for this case) in taxes every year until you've written off that 20k you paid in taxes - about 6 years in this case.

Has absolutely zilch to do with how much your P&L are. Those will still influence your final tax bill, of course, but they don't touch the break.

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Now - this case is not "avoidance" since you've paid the tax and are getting it back, but there are a lot of similar breaks related to loans, and the interest you're paying on loans - especially if the thing you're using that loan for is also taxed.

So it's VERY possible that Uber has generated a $1 billion tax break every year through loan shenanigans. That doesn't mean that they won't pay taxes, it just means the yearly bill will be 1 billion lower than it probably ought to have been.