Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#141

Post by spankyspangler » Thu, May 13, 2021, 9:41 AM UTC

krrrh wrote: post #103

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I understand, HIV is fairly difficult to transmit, requiring an exchange of infected body fluids. This makes it deeply traumatic because the people you're most likely to infect will be people extremely close to you. To some extent this is true of almost any transmissable disease, but HIV added the twist that infection is very, very unlikely to happen between two individuals that are not physically intimate…

I’m not who you’re asking but I wish we had learned that a robust debate is necessary and we shouldn’t just assume tha Anthony Fauci has read the latest research. https://www.econlib.org/great-moments-in-epidemiology/ He did enormous damage in 1983 by speculating about casual transmission of HIV within households even though he admitted to not having read the paper. He was slow to get up to speed on aerosol transmiss…

This goes to all politicians and "experts" and journalists.

The slavish subservience to authority and desperate clamor to lick boot sickens me. I mean, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, the gun running and drug smuggling and interventions in South and Central America, banking corruption and laundering, the subprime crash, the Panama Papers, Congressional insider trading, corporations paying no taxes while politicians clutch pearls and wring hands about how they're using legal loopholes so there's nothing they can do about it, intelligence agencies spying on congress and on citizens, fabrications of stories about collusion with Putin, the list is endless.

And yet again, like clockwork, once again the "experts" and "journalists" know what is best for us and once again the followers are all falling over themselves to prove their devotion by putting on their big shows of faith, and denouncing and bullying all the heretics and traitors who dare to ask questions.

I have to laugh if it wasn't so sad. For some stupid reason I had some hope, but after seeing it all play out again it seems like old Dick Cheney could come and start talking about Iran and WMDs or denounce the next Gaddafi, and Fox and the NYT and all those other "trusted experts" would duly start regurgitating their lines, and pretty soon everyone would fall in line and anyone who didn't want to go to war (read: send others to war) would be un-American traitors.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#142

Post by cheeri0 » Thu, May 13, 2021, 10:03 AM UTC

whimsicalism wrote: post #62

cheeri0 wrote: post #55

I always wondered why people thought quicker lockdowns in Chyna would have stopped covid-19 from spreading since no one knew who was infected and a single person who escaped the country during the arbitrary quarantine would have made the whole thing pointless. I'm also confused why they think a virus with such a low death rate is important. The only thing I can think of is a shocking percent of people don't actually…

You don't have to be a genius to realize that 600k deaths even with lockdowns was quite bad. China managed to pretty much completely mitigate hundreds of thousands of deaths just by having a reasonable policy response. It makes me embarrassed to live where I do

That number is WITH covid using a test where the guy who invented it said it was not good at detecting a virus.

everything i just told you is a fact and yet you will still downvote my comment.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#143

Post by 74d-fe6-2c6 » Thu, May 13, 2021, 10:04 AM UTC

top_post wrote: post #19

Man, all the WHO bashing comments are getting downvoted pretty quickly, except: - WHO took a _long_ time to declare a pandemic when member countries were asking for it. - WHO actively discouraged international border closures for containment. - WHO took way too long to declare aerosol transmission even when countries had identified it. In a global scale event like this, there's no individual country who should have b…

WHO is also way too understanding towards China and basically owned by Bill Gates.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#144

Post by cheeri0 » Thu, May 13, 2021, 10:05 AM UTC

procinct wrote: post #65

cheeri0 wrote: post #55

I always wondered why people thought quicker lockdowns in Chyna would have stopped covid-19 from spreading since no one knew who was infected and a single person who escaped the country during the arbitrary quarantine would have made the whole thing pointless. I'm also confused why they think a virus with such a low death rate is important. The only thing I can think of is a shocking percent of people don't actually…

If you are wondering why people thought the virus was important despite the “low” death rate you only need to look at India right now. Or Italy before it. When it floods a medical system to the point of collapse things become very dangerous.

What are the death rates? Do you know?

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#145

Post by _y5hn » Thu, May 13, 2021, 10:35 AM UTC

spankyspangler wrote: post #131

_y5hn wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the contrary, and no need for hostile comments attempting to belittle other posters.

No need for badgering, asking pointless questions nitpicking and adding nothing to the discussion. Which itself is a form of bullying and belittling. There is nothing wrong with my initial comment about the WHO's authority, it absolutely has a measure of authority. Why you would try to make up some definition of the word "authority" that nobody else uses, and then try to attack my comment with it is beyond me.

Without any pretext you came up with this projection: "This seems to be very upsetting to you for some reason."

This is trying to play a psychological game with other posters. No point continuing any argument after that, as evidently you have no good intention of having a respectful and balanced discussion, as later posts clearly indicate.

Just because we have different opinions, there's no need for such cheap tricks.

Anyways, to finish my point of view: I have no crocodile tears to shed for authorities trying to scapegoat one of many NGO they are member of. Each country have their own experts, many of who serve for WHO from time to time, so have ample means to come up with new findings at any point in time. Such findings can of course always be shared with the international community, and with WHO. Collaboration is about what you contribute, not what you try to take away from it.

You are entitled to your own opinion, but I don't find it coherent in any other regard than authorities not taking responsibility for their own decisions, actions, indecisions and inaction.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#146

Post by yorwba » Thu, May 13, 2021, 11:12 AM UTC

rjzzleep wrote: post #130

sudosysgen wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should re-read my original comment. I said that travel restrictions would not do anything unless the pandemic strategy was eradiction. If the strategy is to "flattien the curve", then there is essentially no effect from closing borders. >1. Lockdown and travel restrictions are not the same. Yes, this is the entire point of my argument. >2. Travel restrictions and reasonable public health safety measure are not ex…

> You should re-read my original comment. I said that travel restrictions would not do anything unless the pandemic strategy was eradiction. If the strategy is to "flattien the curve", then there is essentially no effect from closing borders. You should look outside the window there are more countries in the world than just the EU and the USA. Taiwan had effectively zero community transmission for almost a year witho…

> Howd they work out in Europe? How many lockdowns will they have? They actually did Lockdowns without travel restrictions and it did not work.

Lockdowns have worked very well in Europe. That's why the reaction to rising cases was always another lockdown, following which case counts fell again. However, the overall strategy was not eradication, so every lockdown so far ended when there were still enough infected to start a new wave. Travel restrictions would have helped keep more infectious strains like B 1.1.7 at bay, but in their absence, already-present strains would have kept spreading anyway.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#147

Post by spankyspangler » Thu, May 13, 2021, 12:24 PM UTC

_y5hn wrote: post #145

spankyspangler wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No need for badgering, asking pointless questions nitpicking and adding nothing to the discussion. Which itself is a form of bullying and belittling. There is nothing wrong with my initial comment about the WHO's authority, it absolutely has a measure of authority. Why you would try to make up some definition of the word "authority" that nobody else uses, and then try to attack my comment with it is beyond me.

Without any pretext you came up with this projection: " This seems to be very upsetting to you for some reason. " This is trying to play a psychological game with other posters. No point continuing any argument after that, as evidently you have no good intention of having a respectful and balanced discussion, as later posts clearly indicate. Just because we have different opinions, there's no need for such cheap tric…

> Just because we have different opinions, there's no need for such cheap tricks.

You shouldn't have been the one to start using them then.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#148

Post by lostcolony » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:33 PM UTC

Ericson2314 wrote: post #22

lostcolony wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because the US' leadership is absent in one area does not preclude it from being present and effective somewhere else. Similarly, just because the US' leadership is both absent and therefore ineffective in an area does not imply that were the US' leadership present, it would still be ineffective. Certainly, per the parent comment, we have examples of the US' past leadership in this context leading to a very diff…

So first of all, I think the US-lead world order is much overhyped. Second, yes Trump accelerated some things, but deep changes that caused Trump more than they were caused by Trump have been having more effect on international relations far long. Don't forget all the same complaints about not funding the state department were made in the Bush years. Trump is a bad, don't get me wrong, but this seems like trite hawk…

I was not saying the US-lead world order isn't overhyped.

I was also not saying that Trump was a solitary problem.

I was not even judging Trump in my post, or making any partisan claims.

I was pointing out that you're attacking a strawman in your original post (as well as the one above). The original claim was simply "US policy in the past helped prevent pandemics. Under the prior administration, that policy changed, and we got a pandemic".

In response, you talked about global warming and Hitler. So I tried to explain why the logical leaps you took did not make sense.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#149

Post by lostcolony » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

cudgy wrote: post #43

garyfirestorm wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think generally US has carried that role in past until 2016. Either by partnerships or by holding a gun to other people’s head, US has exercised a self preservation strategy which had some effect on remaining world. For eg. Obama admin had narrowed down Ebola and contained it[1]. That indirectly was beneficial for rest of the world. Unfortunately the last administration deserted from these responsibilities thereby…

So, Trump (or any American president) was supposed to dictate the response to Covid for the entire world? I recall many “powerful” people and news orgs ridiculing Trump’s actions early in the pandemic even so far as claiming in some cases to never even use a vaccine created under his administration. A vaccine that the same people now herald as a savior once the current administration took charge. Is that the leadersh…

No, but there had been a lot of wargaming for pandemics ( https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02277-6 ), preparation for pandemics ( https://www.statnews.com/2020/05/17/the-art-of-the-pandemic-... ), stark warnings that we were ripe for one from experts and notables ( https://www.businessinsider.com/people-who-seemingly-predict... ), and we even had CDC members inside and working with China in case of novel infectious agents appearing there ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-... )

The prior administration actively ignored and undermined all of that (as referenced in some of those prior links, and https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-n... ).

The concern with a vaccine at the time was that it was going to be a mickey mouse one designed to show a win, rather than be effective, similar to Trump's claims about hydroxychloroquine and injecting disinfectants. But as people saw Moderna and Pfizer go through proper clinical trials, and be proved effective, even at the accelerated rate, and to be recommended by actual trusted medical professionals, they came on board. Well, obviously not everyone; now that it's been tested and shown to be safe it's Bill Gates' 5G mind control shot, despite Trump having received one.

Re: Covid-19 Was 'A Preventable Disaster,' WHO-Ordered Report Says

#150

Post by x86ARMsRace » Thu, May 13, 2021, 1:44 PM UTC

cudgy wrote: post #33

x86ARMsRace wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When has global political leadership ever not been “absent” Plenty of times in history. Consider the 20th century. Almost all of it was defined by global political leadership.

If your definition of global leadership consists of 2 world wars, several pan-Asian conflicts, war and conflict in areas like the entire Middle East, much of Africa, and large chunks of Central and South America for practically the entire 20th century, then it is clear that our definition of leadership differs greatly.

> consists of 2 world wars

Are you trying to go down the NRx rabbit hole of "World War II could have been avoided"? It's basically a Godwin's Law at this point. Most of the other conflicts you mention are actually American and Russian conflicts, so you're also falling into the trap of "America is the world".