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Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

businessinsider.com.au

321–330 of 431 posts

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect (well, I don't expect, but I WANT) my government to stop it from happening. It's foolish to expect people who are in a position of responsibility _to their shareholders_ to act like they're responsible _to you_. They're not. Close the loopholes, raise the taxes (wealth, cap gains, high-earner income, corporate, etc) and stop vilifying people for making money.

They are part of the same minority of society that donates almost all the billions of dollars that ultimately goes to politicians who make the same rules. They are buying the rules and then exploiting them. There is no way to deal with the matter without dealing with them.

I totally agree the legalized corruption in the US is causing huge problems, and preventing the fixes I mentioned above (higher taxes for the rich and for companies, closing loopholes, etc).

If you live in the US, I'd encourage supporting Represent.US, an anti-corruption / good-governance group. There is a critical anti-corruption, pro-democracy bill that they support nearing the floor of the senate now, and they need more people to make calls to voters.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#322
post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll put it a different way. Most people don't see issues with that, they see issues with shit legislation. You want an effective method? Provide a negative incentive to correct that. Its far more effective to do that. Talking about how we should get them to change their morality may give us the feel goods, but that's about all it'll do.

Again - there is no reason not to do both. Dissatisfaction is not a limited resource. I haven't heard a convincing reason to refrain from criticizing the business practices in question that doesn't simply ignore the practical points I've been making. Re-read my post near the top of this thread.

> Dissatisfaction is not a limited resource

It is, though. When outrage is misdirected, it lets the true bad guys get off scot–free.

Sure, there are some people who can be angry about everything all day long, but everyone else grows tired to listening to them, and they lose credibility for when it counts.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s actually rather difficult and costly to renounce citizenship —- you must pay for that privilege. The passport fee should be more than enough (as it is for literally every other country), especially for a passport that barely cracks the top 20 to top 10 in various indices of passport strength. We are being exploited and there’s really no good reason.

> The passport fee should be more than enough (as it is for literally every other country) The US does have an extremely good network of embassies, and the US is also probably the most effective country on earth at being able to evacuate their citizens from areas that turn hostile. And of course... a passport is nothing without the state to back it up. That requires more funding than just a passport fee.

> the US is also probably the most effective country on earth at being able to evacuate their citizens from areas that turn hostile

Countries turning hostile is a low risk for expats. And whenever major natural disasters have occurred in recent decades, it is often reported that smaller European countries evacuated their citizens better and more kindly than the US.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect (well, I don't expect, but I WANT) my government to stop it from happening. It's foolish to expect people who are in a position of responsibility _to their shareholders_ to act like they're responsible _to you_. They're not. Close the loopholes, raise the taxes (wealth, cap gains, high-earner income, corporate, etc) and stop vilifying people for making money.

Becoming a CEO does not magically make your responsibility to society disappear. Shareholders are an additional thing you need to worry about, not the only thing. > stop vilifying people for making money Why? They're doing it in a vile way.

Their responsibility to "the taxpayer" is a few orders of magnitude less acute than their responsibility to the owners of the company they've been hired to manage.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s actually rather difficult and costly to renounce citizenship —- you must pay for that privilege. The passport fee should be more than enough (as it is for literally every other country), especially for a passport that barely cracks the top 20 to top 10 in various indices of passport strength. We are being exploited and there’s really no good reason.

> The passport fee should be more than enough (as it is for literally every other country) The US does have an extremely good network of embassies, and the US is also probably the most effective country on earth at being able to evacuate their citizens from areas that turn hostile. And of course... a passport is nothing without the state to back it up. That requires more funding than just a passport fee.

>The US does have an extremely good network of embassies

The only reason most citizens would go to an embassy is to renew their passport, so these embassies are needed once every 5-10 years. Do you really think that US embassies offer such high level of service coverage and quality that it is worth paying through the nose for?

>US is also probably the most effective country on earth at being able to evacuate their citizens from areas that turn hostile.

This is hardly a real benefit if you don't actively travel to unstable areas. How often does the need for evacuation from hostile areas come as a total surprise?

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#326
post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually the EU would have to act here. The EU should ensure that revenues made in the EU are taxed in the EU. However that would require all member states to agree and for countries like Ireland or Netherlands it is better to earn 1% of all EU profits of those companies than "proper" tax rates on only parts of the revenue, thus they won't agree ...

> and for countries like Ireland or Netherlands it is better Don't know about Ireland, but saw a TV highlight about 2yrs ago, that analysed benefits for the country and found there hardly aren't any. For regular citizens and the economy in general, at least. That a lot of the revenues flow to those upholding this lax tax system, while the huge money streams flow through NL to end up in even more lax tax havens.

Having large multinational corporations is hugely beneficial to the Irish economy, through direct employment. Sure any company that is just a brass plaque and funneling money through Ireland is of no benefit, but most of the big ones have significant high quality high tech jobs here. Apple, Facebook, Google, Intel, you name it, they all have huge operations here.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#327
post #316
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this seems to be about uber activities outside the US Wrong. This is Uber transferring money all around the world through shell companies so it's hard to figure out where it came from. Just like a crypto-mixer. This quote alone shows how they initially transferred a good chunk of money out of the US: Uber transferred its intellectual property through a $16 billion “loan” from one of its subsidiaries in Singapore th…

Ah, the old classic "the 16th Amendment was never really ratified" argument. A perennial loser when it is brought up in court. It is such a weak argument that now I'm wondering if that site is as sloppy in their research on the other interesting articles I found there, like the ones about how there were more white slaves than black slaves in the US, or how the Rothschilds control the US, or chemtrails are real and dr…

It even gets the 16th Amendment wrong.

The 16th Amendment was passed in response to SCOTUS's ruling in Pollock. Pollock held that a tax on income derived from property (i.e., rental income) was effectively a property tax, and therefore a direct tax, requiring apportionment to the states. This is why the 16th Amendment says "power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived" (emphasis added). There was prior precedent that income taxes per se were constitutional (Springer v US, per Wikipedia). Furthermore, Pollock's reasoning itself is pretty close to bunk--I wouldn't expect SCOTUS to uphold it even without the 16th Amendment.

Oh god, rereading the article, it gets worse:

> Can a law declared unconstitutional in 1895 be constitutional in 1913 and beyond?

Yes, if there is a change in the constitution explicitly done so as to render it constitutional. But it's also not like SCOTUS itself hasn't changed its mind on what's constitutional and unconstitutional in the past (see Commerce Clause jurisprudence for an example of where unconstitutional interpretations have become constitutional).

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth noting that the top 1% pay about 40% of all income taxes at the federal level, and they earn about 20% of annual income from all sources ( http://hdr.undp.org/en/indicators/186106 ). So classifying 88% of federal revenue as paid by regular workers might be a bit misleading

99% of the top 1% are "normal workers" like me - engineers at Google - or my cousin - a radiologist - or one of my best friends - an investment banker - or lawyers, or owners of successful small businesses, etc... These "normal workers" pay a lot of that 40% of the tax bill. There aren't that many CEOs of Fortune 500 companies and board members, A+ list celebrities, and aristocrats. You're getting into the .01% - tha…

Reading the other comments, I looked closer at your choice of professions.

1) Engineers at Google earning 400K+ USD per year are receiving a large chunk in stock grants. I guess 1/3 to 1/2. (And the last 10 years have been very, very good for equity prices in tech majors.) I assume those receive capital gains tax treatment when sold. If held for at least one year, you receive generous tax savings. Is that fair?

2) Radiologist is probably paid 100% cash or part in deferred (cash) comp. I doubt their receive equity in their public/listed hospital group. Dear Reader Doctors: Please correct me if I am wrong! Also: Are you aware of incomes for highly-skilled specialists in other high-developed countries with good national healthcare systems? I guess about 50% less. Look at Germany, Netherlands, France, Japan, etc. The US is a global outlier on healthcare costs and incomes.

3) Investment banker is a loose term, because you can be a very senior quant on Wall Street can earn 500K USD. Or you can be a M&A i-banker or trader or portfolio manager and easily earn more than 500K USD in good years, but a good chunk will be equity. I guess 1/4 to 1/3. If you make crazy money (millions), surely 50% equity. That said, equity in an investment bank isn't a very good investment. Look at the last ten years compared to big tech. Big tech is killing ibanks on equity returns. Still... that equity grant will get beneficial tax treatment. In this narrow scenario, what benefit does this serve for the wider economy? I see little.

4) Lawyers: Probably paid all cash, possibly deferred comp (cash). Most white shoe law firms that can pay 400K+ USD are not public/listed, so equity isn't the same, even if there is /some/ measure of profit-sharing. Please correct me if I am wrong about public/listed law firms. Just before I hit reply, I thought of another type of special case: corporate counsel. If you work an in-house counsel in New York City, you can easily make 400K+ USD as a senior lawyer. And your company probably pays you some equity. (We can all this i-bank/legal hybrid job.)

5) Small business owners: These are essentially small-time executives who can structure all kinds of non-income payments to themselves and reduce their tax burden. Important: I would also separate intellectual property-heavy businesses (high-value services) vs traditional mom-n-pop shops, like chain of gift shops or pizza restaurants. The return-on-equity is hugely different. That said, in most developed economies, small-to-medium enterprises generate the lion's share of new jobs. (Huzzah to that.) Still, the same tax benefits the owner can structure for themselves will not also be arranged for the "normal workers". Again: Is this fair?

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#329
post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Clearly everyone should try to pay a reasonable share. That isn't clear to me, because using the government to collect revenue hasn't been demonstrated to be a benefit. This still presupposes that government revenue is inherently beneficial. I think if everyone found a way to pay virtually nothing, the government would collapse. That's not the same thing as society collapsing, society and the government are not cot…

Do you really see a situation where the US government collapses and US society does not?

Every scenario where the US government ends/collapses is such, outside of the Dr Strangelove ending.

Re: Uber used 50 Dutch shell companies to dodge taxes on $6B in revenue

#330

In my opinion, this is example of poor/incomplete regulation. Using sports as an analogy, it's like if a game was designed poorly, we have the expectation that players would act in good faith to not take advantage of rules. But players have the incentive to win, not act in good faith.

> Using sports as an analogy

An example I'm quite familiar with; the Ferrari Formula 1 team used an engine in (at least) 2019, and possibly earlier too, that had momentary higher fuel flow than allowed by the regulations. The regulations were very clear that at no time the flow was to be larger than 100 kg per hour.

The hurdle: enforcing the fuel flow into an engine, running at 12,000 RPM, is hard when you're not the one building it. So the FIA, the governing body, commissioned a fuel flow device that would sit in the fuel line between the tank and the engine, and measure the throughput. The flow was/is measured almost 5,000 times per second.

Ferrari found out how it worked, and simply produced higher throughput when the fuel flow monitor wasn't reading the flow. Entirely genius but highly illegal. Between 2019 and 2020 they were found out, and for the 2020 season they were considerably slower because their engine was designed to use the fuel flow workaround.

TL;DR: even perfectly designed regulations can have problems when it comes to figuring out if something is being broken. In this example, Ferrari got off without a penalty because they in turn helped the governing body figure out a way to catch anyone doing the same thing. This rule break was suspected by competitors and fans alike for the best part of the 2019 series. It wasn't an out-of-the-blue shock. Figuring out what exactly is being done illegally is just not that easy in large, opaque systems.

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