Live data from Hacker News

Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

m.dw.com

121–130 of 276 posts

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#121

Why is this guy not in jail? This is blatantly manipulating cryptos almost every other week.

For the exact same reasons that Jim Cramer is not in jail, CNBC staff is not in jail, Marketwatch staff is not in jail, Motley fool staff is not in jail, Ken Griffin is not in jail, etc etc.

For the same reasons the people who tried to short and manipulate Tesla (and GameStop) into bankruptcy for gains didn't go to jail.

Also for the same reasons market makers and hedge funds like Citadel can still exist while blatantly manipulating the market every second of every day and deliberately shorting healthy companies into bankruptcy for gains.

All of the above parties are doing way way way worse than Musk in broad daylight. All Musk does is arguably pump and dump. The above parties pump and dump and are constantly wash trading, influencing/buying the SEC, buying media (CNBC "Tesla is almost bankrupt, sell now", etc) for pump and dumps, pump & dumping on Twitter (Cramer), naked shorting illegally, messing with order executions, HFT DDoS attacks on exchanges for profit and so on and so forth. All at the attractive cost of meaningless tiny fines (assuming they get fined at all) and 0 jail time.

Yes. The US financial markets are completely rotten.

Ironically, I feel that the crypto markets are much fairer. At least you can buy a real token directly and sell that real token for money on an exchange of your chosing. At least it's clear that Musk is pumping and dumping (as opposed to Jim Cramer on CNBC, who does exactly the same for hedge funds under the veil of "trustworthy media").

As a comparison: ever tried to get your hands on stock certificates for stock you own? Good luck with that. Can you point me to a broker where you can directly own a share? You can't. They don't exist. Can you point me to a broker that doesn't lend out the shares which YOU "own" to hedge funds? I know of some in Europe, but they are very rare. Can you point me to a broker that allows you to route your orders to the exchange of your choice? I can only name 1: IBKR. The vast majority of brokers get paid to route your orders to the exchange that is worst for you and best for whoever is paying off your broker. And then there's "cheap" brokers who offer "payment for order flow" where traders essentially pay a "trade fee" to whoever is paying for order flow (to give you worse execution than themselves).

I could go on and on and on.

PS: to be sure, I don't mean to turn this into whataboutism and to argue that Musk's pump & dumps are ethically OK because others are doing worse. The point I'm trying to make is that the US markets are essentially rigged and unfair. And claiming that Musk should be in jail for pump-n-dumping is fine, but then many others should be jail too. Preferably for longer and with way higher priority.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#122
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Tesla announced the initial move they received a huge amount of push back for the environmental concerns. And it didn’t look good for an EV company of all things. There is a trend I’ve seen of a company making a decison, everyone hating on them for it, then they reverse the decision, and they are still criticised. If a company turns around and reverses a decision citing the very reasons they were criticised for…

>I mean, isn’t this exactly the behaviour we want to encourage? I want to encourage 'corporate flexibility and social accountability'. I do not want to encourage market-whale-individuals to attempt one-person pump-and-dumps on small(ish) global markets and further market opportunism & manipulation. Personally I believe that the decision has little to do with environmental impact; I think that the btc opportunity is b…

All crypto I know about is useful !only! for market speculation.

Bitcoin is especially broken and useless for anything. Unless you want to pay 100$ transaction cost to by ice-cream at grocery store.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#123
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Tesla announced the initial move they received a huge amount of push back for the environmental concerns. And it didn’t look good for an EV company of all things. There is a trend I’ve seen of a company making a decison, everyone hating on them for it, then they reverse the decision, and they are still criticised. If a company turns around and reverses a decision citing the very reasons they were criticised for…

No, because this makes it seem like they are not making the right decisions because they are right , but only because doing the wrong thing made them unpopular. It makes you wonder what other wrong things they do that doesn't elicit enough of a popular response to make them reconsider. It's not like the environmental impact of Bitcoin was a subtle or obscure issue when they first made the decision. They should have k…

Is it bad to not want to do something only because public opinion says not to?

I think if you think it is bad, then that implies a certain world view about absolute good and evil. The implication is that this is an evil thing, and only an evil person would want to do it, and so if the only reason they won’t do it is because of public opinion then that doesn’t change their inherent evilness.

But the other possibility is that the person making the decision believes it’s a good thing, or at worst a neutral thing, but are not willing to pay the cost once they find out how badly everyone reacted to it.

Maybe Musk thinks decentralised money is more important than the setback to climate change? Maybe musk thinks that crypto will become green over time and it won’t matter? Or maybe he just wanted to do a pump and dump. There are all sorts of things musk can think, who knows.

But either way, people got what they wanted.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#124
post #95

What I don't get is, why people are talking about environmental impact per transaction. Transactions or not, the computers are churning constantly to solve the useless function that would produce the hash with the most 0s in it. It really doesn't have anything to do with transactions(the fees are only a fraction of the profits). The energy impact would be precisely correlated to the fiat price since the miners will b…

You're completely right. I think the second order effects are negligible at this scale.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to Satoshi, dependence on thermodynamics is a feature to prevent centralization.

Doesn't seem to be working so fine now, is it? Also I wouldn't put behind well financed groups that hire PhDs to find a way to accelerate the PoW enough to gain a significant advantage (as in, ability to centralize the blockchain).

> accelerate the PoW

That wouldn't do anything to energy consumption. It would just increase the hash rate.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#126
post #75
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that you can't really take a company at face value if they reverse course after having already profited from their "lapse in judgement". The parent post lined out potential motivations behind all this that IMO aren't really that outlandish. It's speculation, but it's not some outlandish crackpot theory

Sure, but a basic rule of civility is that you should "assume good faith" and give others the benefit of the doubt when the good faith explanation is plausible.

I think you can and should assume good faith. However, the explanation about the environment seems dubious for reasons people have pointed out here. They didn't know about bitcoin's environmental impact? The people at Tesla didn't think about negative environmental impact being counter to their brand? Giving the benefit of the doubt and assuming good faith does not mean you have to be gullible.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#127

Elon is still promoting Dogecoin which is also proof of work. Lots of people will be harmed when it crashes. Nearly all cryptocurrencies crash 85% every once in a while.

Humor: So I'm sure your explanation of why somebody hasn't already successfully implemented practical proof of stake before is totally credible and unbiased! ;) Not Humor: If somebody will work on it for free, do you promise to pay them in your own cryptocurrency? "Will work for stake!"

You don't have to destroy the environment to maintain a database. There's other ways to achieve censorship resistance than waste. Blockchains are are all social consensus anyway.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#128

Once Ethereum completes its transition to Proof of Stake, which will reduce its energy consumption by 99.75%, it will be the natural choice for Tesla.

I'm not sure that being the natural choice for another pump n dump scheme is a good thing.

Tesla didn't dump bitcoin. They only sold 10% of their holding, so any negative impact of their decision to cease acceptance of bitcoin for vehicle purchases, on the value of their bitcoin holdings, would outweigh the gains they made from pumping bitcoin and selling a portion of it.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#129

Elon is still promoting Dogecoin which is also proof of work. Lots of people will be harmed when it crashes. Nearly all cryptocurrencies crash 85% every once in a while.

Humor: So I'm sure your explanation of why somebody hasn't already successfully implemented practical proof of stake before is totally credible and unbiased! ;) Not Humor: If somebody will work on it for free, do you promise to pay them in your own cryptocurrency? "Will work for stake!"

People have successfully implemented proof of stake cryptos. Solana, cardano, avax,algorand just to name a few are all faster and cheaper than BTC or ETH (some vastly so), and don’t have the horrifying resource usage that comes with proof of work.

As far as I can tell, the fact that bitcoin/eth weren’t phased out for better alternatives tells me that: * a significant usage of crypto is pure speculation/investment * peoples identity gets tied to particular coins * people care more about existing network than usability (eth vs solana, for example)

I have respect for the people in this space who are trying to do meaningfully new or interesting things, although its overshadowed by the wealth of blatant Ponzi schemes, memecoins, or copycats/scams just trying to make a quick buck.

Re: Tesla no longer accepts Bitcoin due to climate impact

#130
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When Tesla announced the initial move they received a huge amount of push back for the environmental concerns. And it didn’t look good for an EV company of all things. There is a trend I’ve seen of a company making a decison, everyone hating on them for it, then they reverse the decision, and they are still criticised. If a company turns around and reverses a decision citing the very reasons they were criticised for…

>I mean, isn’t this exactly the behaviour we want to encourage? I want to encourage 'corporate flexibility and social accountability'. I do not want to encourage market-whale-individuals to attempt one-person pump-and-dumps on small(ish) global markets and further market opportunism & manipulation. Personally I believe that the decision has little to do with environmental impact; I think that the btc opportunity is b…

"small(ish)" a trillion USD (+/-) is not exactly small
Post reply on HN