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‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

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Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#111

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

shostack wrote: post #108
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By mob I mean people, who, in that order: 1. Learn there is a new hire 2. their first course of action is to scour his internet history for things to be offended by 3. find something 4. get a lynch mob going 5. complain to HR 6. get guy fired 7. start a party

It's hard to take your question as genuine based on how you are engaging those who respond. For starters, you're making baseless assumptions about those involved without providing and receipts. For example, how do you know people were looking for things to be offended by vs people simply googling their soon to be boss who found some very concerning things in the process and raise their (quite legitimate) concerns thr…

I have karma to burn and I am annoyed by automatic downvoting and general idiocy I see around me. It is not intellectually lazy to challenge idiocy. In fact, it is necessary. It is intellectually lazy( and if not downright stupid ) to let hysteria and twitter mob dictate hiring practices.

It is not trolling.

So. Some god damn context since anyone with access to google COULD have pulled it if they were so inclined ( but we can't have reasoned discussion, can we now ).

One of the offensive passages with more context:

"When she was in her teens, her father decided to move the family to the United States, where they suffered a financial reversal she was unwilling to talk about. Suddenly not among the moneyed class, she hustled herself through the redbrick boondocks of the University of Vermont. Citibank internship led to a Deutsche Bank job, and after a few years she was an equity derivatives trader at Deutsche, holding her own against the toff sharks of the City of London.

She had wild green eyes, with unnatural red spots in her irises when you pulled close, reminiscent of that Afghan girl from the National Geographic cover. Her personality was flinty and rough, and as leathery as her skin. She had spent years between various jobs backpacking around the rougher parts of the world. She was an imposing, broad-shouldered presence, six feet tall in bare feet, and towering over me in heels.

Most women in the Bay Area are soft and weak, cosseted and naive despite their claims of worldliness, and generally full of shit. They have their self-regarding entitlement feminism, and ceaselessly vaunt their independence, but the reality is, come the epidemic plague or foreign invasion, they’d become precisely the sort of useless baggage you’d trade for a box of shotgun shells or a jerry can of diesel.

British Trader, on the other hand, was the sort of woman who would end up a useful ally in that postapocalypse, doing whatever work- be it carpentry, animal husbandry, or a shotgun blast in someone's back- required doing. Long story short, you wanted to tie your genetic wagon to the backing horse of her bloodline. Which is why I was less nervous than I should have been on a random Saturday in July..."

You find that offensive and a fireable offense?

Good luck.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#112

Post by pseudalopex »

georgewsinger wrote: post #110
williamsmj wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More of a layup than a dunk. The people trying to get him fired have read his stuff. They quote from it extensively in the open letter: https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/12/22432909/apple-petition-h... . Your claim about the mob not reading his stuff applies to you, the person citing hearsay from YouTube comments (!!!). It demonstrably does not apply to the people who got him fired.

I'm glad the people who wrote the petition read his book, but did any of the 2,000 employees who signed it didn't? If your answer "maybe some of them?", do you think I have a point? This story also reads: > ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation [emphasis mine] I'm suspicious that ample due process can be afforded to someone when they are gone mere hours after a petition is circ…

The petition quoted paragraphs and even pages of the book.

Hours is enough time to download the book and verify he wrote those things.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#113

Post by monocasa »

wallfacer4 wrote: post #41
p1necone wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is not acceptable behaviour in a workplace, and hasn't been for a long time. Calling his termination "cancel culture" is just buying into right wing conspiracy theories.

It's kinda sad seeing prominent VCs portraying it as "journalists throwing a hissy fit over someone who wasn't nice to them", when all you have to do is read direct quotes from his book to see why Apple employees might not want to work with him. example VC: https://twitter.com/micsolana/status/1392675012281315328

Lol, that tweet went private.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#114

Post by pr0zac »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #35
ryanwhitney wrote: post #19

Outside of the main quote that keeps showing up, he was also fairly creepy writing about women he worked with . > Unlike most women at Facebook (or in the Bay Area, really) she knew how to dress; forties-style, form-fitting dresses from neck to knee were her mainstay. > There were few women one would call conventionally attractive at Facebook. The few there were rarely if ever dressed for work with their femininity o…

The only thing that should matter is: Can he do the job? Whether he wrote a book people get their panties twisted over does not appear to be a part of that job description. When did this concept become so controversial?

I’m getting the impression you’ve never run a company before since you seem to think you’re making logical arguments so I’ll answer you earnestly regardless of the ad hominem attacks you’re making.

That concept became controversial 57 years ago with the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964 and the controversial nature of it has been strengthened over the decades since through a multitude of hostile workplace laws building on the CRA.

What those laws mean is hiring an employee, doubly so for a manager like the man in question, who has published a high profile book disparaging a protected class of people opens up the company itself to lawsuits on the basis of discrimination relating to a hostile workplace if a single member of that protected class is (or even feels) mistreated in some way because it’s evidence the company should’ve known about the potential hostile environment and did nothing to prevent it.

And so it’s clear, no this is not the same thing as cancel culture based on a tweet or forum post or even on the scale of Amazon banning Parler. It’s not the same as James Damore and Google. Those all do not necessarily meet the standard of public speech while this guy went and published a book which very clearly does. This is a half a century plus of laws and cases establishing precedent and companies acting in a way to prevent costly lawsuits.

No well run company would open themselves up to the legal risk involved in hiring or keeping on someone like this for a management role, especially after it was clearly brought to light in this manner. Apple’s HR department is almost definitely currently trying to figure out what mistake resulted in him not getting filtered out earlier in the process so they can prevent this from happening again.

"Can he do the job?" has not been the only thing that matters, and in fact the situation described in this instance has mattered, for over a half century, I’m guessing longer than you’ve been alive. Not because of woke mobs or free speech or any other recent political talking points or even really about Apple caring about sexism. It’s about avoiding clear cut legal and financial risk period.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#115

Post by baggy_trough »

pr0zac wrote: post #114
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing that should matter is: Can he do the job? Whether he wrote a book people get their panties twisted over does not appear to be a part of that job description. When did this concept become so controversial?

I’m getting the impression you’ve never run a company before since you seem to think you’re making logical arguments so I’ll answer you earnestly regardless of the ad hominem attacks you’re making. That concept became controversial 57 years ago with the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964 and the controversial nature of it has been strengthened over the decades since through a multitude of hostile workplace laws…

Turning businesses into the thought police is one of the more evil ramifications of civil rights legislation.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#116

Post by williamsmj »

georgewsinger wrote: post #110
williamsmj wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More of a layup than a dunk. The people trying to get him fired have read his stuff. They quote from it extensively in the open letter: https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/12/22432909/apple-petition-h... . Your claim about the mob not reading his stuff applies to you, the person citing hearsay from YouTube comments (!!!). It demonstrably does not apply to the people who got him fired.

I'm glad the people who wrote the petition read his book, but did any of the 2,000 employees who signed it didn't? If your answer "maybe some of them?", do you think I have a point? This story also reads: > ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation [emphasis mine] I'm suspicious that ample due process can be afforded to someone when they are gone mere hours after a petition is circ…

> If your answer "maybe some of them?", do you think I have a point?

If your point is that some people are more rigorous in their research than others then yes, that is true.

But if your point is "Apple should have taken longer to make the the decision", then no.

Apple has a fiduciary duty to its shareholders to protect the company from legal risk. The problem (from Apple's point of view) isn't whether the book taken as a whole has merit, or the subtleties of whether it's fair to fire him.

It's that a new people manager is very prominently and repeatedly on the record as holding views that will absolutely be quoted in successful lawsuits against Apple by the first female or non-white report he handles badly. These quotes will be Exhibit A. Apple will lose. It won't even be close. This is basic stuff for HR and legal.

Reaching this conclusion doesn't require "ample due process". It takes 30 seconds to read any one of the many passages the petition carefully enumerates, and then another 30 seconds to verify the quote is real. Done.

HR's job is to protect the company. They failed by allowing him to be hired. Firing him within hours is the least they could do.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#117

Post by pr0zac »

cudgy wrote: post #109
pr0zac wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the same way you handle all people who actively publish hateful comments about protected classes of people, by firing them so they cannot inflict their beliefs on other workers. I feel like you think you’re posting some sort of gotcha. Do you not believe Apple would’ve done the same thing in those cases? Based on what? Do you have a single example of that happening?

I know Apple would not do the same thing in those cases, because those people are not “protected”. However, Why should they not protect those people too? I’d argue because society has decided that those classes can be subject to derogatory classifications without consequence and, therefore, Apple’s statement is typical corporate virtue signaling. Furthermore, if Apple were to apply this rule for every derogatory rema…

You should probably do some reading on discrimination and hostile work environment laws and case history before speaking so confidently. Men are definitely a protected class, as are white people. Veterans are a protected class with regard to government contractors which Apple is.

You should also probably read up on the difference between private and public speech because it’s also applicable here. A derogatory remark does not open a company up to the same legal risk as the same words published in a best selling book.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#118

Post by pr0zac »

baggy_trough wrote: post #115
pr0zac wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m getting the impression you’ve never run a company before since you seem to think you’re making logical arguments so I’ll answer you earnestly regardless of the ad hominem attacks you’re making. That concept became controversial 57 years ago with the passage of the Civil Rights Act in 1964 and the controversial nature of it has been strengthened over the decades since through a multitude of hostile workplace laws…

Turning businesses into the thought police is one of the more evil ramifications of civil rights legislation.

Did you just call civil rights legislation evil?

Because forcing companies to not allow discriminatory practices or hostile work environments for protected classes is kind of the entire point (of the business oriented portions of those laws).

I’m having difficulty interpreting a more charitable reading of your post.

Edit: just noticed "one of". I’m morbidly curious, what are the other evil ramifications of civil rights laws.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#119

Post by klyrs »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #97
kazinator wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your position is illogical. The question "can this person do the job" can be a resounding, objective "yes", for someone who, say, also happens to embezzle cash from the company. If that's the "only thing that matters", then the thief should keep the job and continue stealing. Especially if you want to defend some unpopular position, you have make sure you don't have logical holes in it, like universal absolutes that…

No. Can the person do the job includes their obvious drawbacks ( like tendency to steal ). I do not consider writing a book, however salacious and 'wrong' it may be, to be in that particular category. The guy is an asshole, but it is hard to argue he does not know what he is doing.

If he wrote a book on how to embezzle from companies, would that be 'wrong' enough for you?

Do you realize that the Civil Rights Act is also a law that companies have an interest in their employees not breaking?

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#120

Post by kwisatzh »

pseudalopex wrote: post #112
georgewsinger wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad the people who wrote the petition read his book, but did any of the 2,000 employees who signed it didn't? If your answer "maybe some of them?", do you think I have a point? This story also reads: > ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation [emphasis mine] I'm suspicious that ample due process can be afforded to someone when they are gone mere hours after a petition is circ…

The petition quoted paragraphs and even pages of the book. Hours is enough time to download the book and verify he wrote those things.

He wrote one of the most quoted passages as a comparison to the mother of his kids. Most SV women don’t live up to this woman, whom he was lucky to get with, according to him. You need more than mere ‘hours’ to get the context.
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