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‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

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Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#101

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

ivraatiems wrote: post #71
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By mob I mean people, who, in that order: 1. Learn there is a new hire 2. their first course of action is to scour his internet history for things to be offended by 3. find something 4. get a lynch mob going 5. complain to HR 6. get guy fired 7. start a party

This man was a public figure with an NYT bestselling book who, based on evidence elsewhere in this post's comments, publicly and privately harassed multiple women over years. Is it possible people already knew of him prior to his hiring?

I will be perfectly honest. The way things are now, I would not be surprised if people just signed w/e petition was waved in front of them. Save the whales, kill the snails, can I go back to work?

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#102

Post by [deleted] »

motohagiography wrote: post #95

There's a rule in politics and senior roles where your job is to not be the news. Apple didn't have a choice in this case. This guy's book was irritating, and it sounds like he crossed some personal lines outside of it. Examples of how awful other managers everywhere are guilty of the same and much worse don't justify anything he might have done to someone either. However, mobs cynically and disingenuously exploit th…

[deleted]

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#103

Post by HKH2 »

motohagiography wrote: post #100
HKH2 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've forgotten the paradox of tolerance: you decide which tolerance is the right kind of tolerance, so you only tolerate the things you already agree with.

I'd suggest Popper's Paraphrase needs some deeper thought, as today it has been reduced to people trying to end arguments by yelling "KARL POPPER!" at people who step out of line.

It's a bit late for that now. The next step is deplatforming anyone open about their politics. Maybe that'll be good after all.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#104

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

williamsmj wrote: post #99
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It certainly wasn't a secret that he wrote the book! But "very misogynistic" is only one part of a long and not particularly hostile interview. If you stumbled upon this interview without the benefit of today's context, would you really be able to conclude the guy's permanently unemployable?

Two things come across in that interview alone. He seems temperamentally totally unsuitable to being a manager at a mainstream tech company. Bluntly, he seems like an asshole. Possibly the kind of asshole certain people find funny. But an asshole. To that extent, I'm surprised he got an offer. Possibly he's very good at pretending not to be an asshole in job interviews. Secondly, the quote from his book in that inter…

Was he indeed going to be a manager? That's a very different story if so, but I haven't seen any coverage indicating that was the plan.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#105

Post by williamsmj »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #94
williamsmj wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The guy wrote a literal NYT/WSJ bestseller, a justifiably noteworthy book about the tech industry. It was covered in the tech and mainstream press extensively. He's a well known public figure, not an anonymous engineer. I don't see any reason to doubt that plenty of people at Apple had heard of him and read the book, other than a self-regarding faith that people you disagree with can't possibly know something you don…

It was covered in the tech and mainstream press, yes. Did any of that coverage indicate that it was so shockingly offensive nobody should ever hire him, as these employees claim to find obvious?

No, admittedly Apple needed to a little more background research to know in advance that if he joined them then they would be successfully sued by the first female report he had a problem with.

Examples of the background research they could have done:

1. talk to any of the employees who organized the petition

2. read his book! It's widely available! This is a guy whose hiring was literally a positive news story yesterday https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-hires-chaos-monkeys-au.... When you hire people who are going to be news you do a little background. It's a short book! Apple screwed up!

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#106

Post by williamsmj »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #104
williamsmj wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two things come across in that interview alone. He seems temperamentally totally unsuitable to being a manager at a mainstream tech company. Bluntly, he seems like an asshole. Possibly the kind of asshole certain people find funny. But an asshole. To that extent, I'm surprised he got an offer. Possibly he's very good at pretending not to be an asshole in job interviews. Secondly, the quote from his book in that inter…

Was he indeed going to be a manager? That's a very different story if so, but I haven't seen any coverage indicating that was the plan.

He was a prominent executive and manager with reports at Facebook (before he wrote the book).

I suppose it's possible Apple hired someone who can't code whose most recent accomplishment was a non-fiction book to be an IC with no reports, but it seems more likely he would have had reports.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#107

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

williamsmj wrote: post #106
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Was he indeed going to be a manager? That's a very different story if so, but I haven't seen any coverage indicating that was the plan.

He was a prominent executive and manager with reports at Facebook (before he wrote the book). I suppose it's possible Apple hired someone who can't code whose most recent accomplishment was a non-fiction book to be an IC with no reports, but it seems more likely he would have had reports.

Okay, that makes a lot more sense. I had thought this was thousands of employees filing a petition against some random IC, maybe a first level manager, which I hope we can agree would be a lot more disturbing.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#108

Post by shostack »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #58
ivraatiems wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By the mob you mean "the people who would have to work with him"?

By mob I mean people, who, in that order: 1. Learn there is a new hire 2. their first course of action is to scour his internet history for things to be offended by 3. find something 4. get a lynch mob going 5. complain to HR 6. get guy fired 7. start a party

It's hard to take your question as genuine based on how you are engaging those who respond.

For starters, you're making baseless assumptions about those involved without providing and receipts.

For example, how do you know people were looking for things to be offended by vs people simply googling their soon to be boss who found some very concerning things in the process and raise their (quite legitimate) concerns through the proper channels?

The language you use and the picture you paint make you come across as intellectually lazy at best, and a troll at worst.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#109

Post by cudgy »

pr0zac wrote: post #96
cudgy wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you then handle a worker that claims white men are inherently racist? Or a worker that posts red-headed men are ugly and stupid? Or a worker that claims almost ex-military people are ignorant and violent? Do all workers who are men and ex-military have the right to demand their removal?

In the same way you handle all people who actively publish hateful comments about protected classes of people, by firing them so they cannot inflict their beliefs on other workers. I feel like you think you’re posting some sort of gotcha. Do you not believe Apple would’ve done the same thing in those cases? Based on what? Do you have a single example of that happening?

I know Apple would not do the same thing in those cases, because those people are not “protected”. However, Why should they not protect those people too? I’d argue because society has decided that those classes can be subject to derogatory classifications without consequence and, therefore, Apple’s statement is typical corporate virtue signaling. Furthermore, if Apple were to apply this rule for every derogatory remark regarding a class of people, they would only have a few employees left when the dust settled.

Re: ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation

#110

Post by georgewsinger »

williamsmj wrote: post #83
georgewsinger wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice dunk, except I'm not accusing someone of heresy/trying to get them fired.

More of a layup than a dunk. The people trying to get him fired have read his stuff. They quote from it extensively in the open letter: https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/12/22432909/apple-petition-h... . Your claim about the mob not reading his stuff applies to you, the person citing hearsay from YouTube comments (!!!). It demonstrably does not apply to the people who got him fired.

I'm glad the people who wrote the petition read his book, but did any of the 2,000 employees who signed it didn't? If your answer "maybe some of them?", do you think I have a point?

This story also reads:

> ‘Misogynistic’ Apple hire is out hours after employees call for investigation [emphasis mine]

I'm suspicious that ample due process can be afforded to someone when they are gone mere hours after a petition is circulated. It could signify that this person resigned immediately out of guilt, but it could also signify that they were immediately fired, or resigned out of fear.

BTW -- I don't know what I'd do if I were this person's boss. Those quotes don't look very flattering, and some people seem genuinely offended by his book after reading it in full. It just seems to me that not everyone who read his book thought it was, taken on the whole, deeply offensive (e.g. 800 Amazon reviews, 4 stars on average, in addition to my "YouTube hearsay"). And maybe this could be a premature rush to judgment. I'd personally want to spend more than "mere hours" to decide whether or not what this person wrote should merit a literal job termination.

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