Live data from Hacker News

Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

irishstu.com

51–60 of 205 posts

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#51
post #39

Unpaid internships are essentially a form of serfdom. The serf system in Russia IIRC started with free peasants who sold themselves into slavery to the landowner when they fell into debt - unlike African slaves in the US, who were essentially kidnapped into servitude. In the same vein people are taking up voluntary servitude in order to get a paid job - sometimes even paying for the privilege. Moreover - a point not…

There's a temptation in politics to see patterns and then fit language to it that kind of fits. It's important not to do this, because it ruins the sense of scale. For example, when someone describes a politician they don't like as a "fascist" it's disrespectful to the memory of people who are squashed under tanks and who are taken in the night by state agents, raped and murdered. Along these lines, it doesn't fit to…

when someone describes a politician they don't like as a "fascist" it's disrespectful to the memory of people who are squashed under tanks and who are taken in the night by state agents, raped and murdered.

I know this is veering off-topic, but I think it's worth pointing out that not every instance of the word "fascist" is disrespectful and to deny people the right to use it is just as destructive as when it is misused by people who don't properly understand what it means.

In many cases it is still appropriate and it should be used to call a spade a spade. For example, many European countries have political parties that are directly descended from the fascist political parties of the 20th century (e.g. [1]). They retain their objetives, ideals and often even their signature salute. There are several politicians in government right now that I personally dislike and that I describe as fascist because that's exactly what they are. Fascist politics existed for decades before WWII and they continue to exist decades after.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Party_%28Spain%29

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#52

Perhaps it is different for design, but taking on an intern for a software shop is almost always a greater burden than benefit. I interned at a few different places while in college, and I was definitely way ahead of the class as far as writing useful code. Regardless, the overhead of people bringing you up to speed on their specific projects and processes for only three months of work just doesn't match what you are…

In my city, it was customary for the university to place students in four-month work terms during the summer for them to get experience. One manager of a software company told me that they basically only took students from these as community service as in the best case they would break even.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You pay wages to employees. (IE People who produce efficient output.) You pay experience to interns. (IE People who take time from efficient employees and produce little output.)

Complete and utter bullshit. When I started work I produced little output, because I was a newbie and knew nothing. I was paid just a little over minimum wage - but I still produced, even if it was crappy code and routine tasks nobody else wanted to do. Companies used to do this all the time - you start at the bottom, fresh out of school, and you have to learn. But you are still f *ing paid.

Agreed, and not just for complete noobs.

If (as an experienced hire) you start a job somewhere enterprisey, the amount of bureaucracy and induction procedure you experience in your first week can mean that you won't be a productive employee for at least a week, if not two. You'll probably still be taking time from experienced employees for months. You still get paid.

In such a place, the first week of employment of an experienced hire is exactly the same as it is for an intern.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#54
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Along these lines, it doesn't fit to equate unpaid internships to serfdom. Serfdom involves effectively permanent, near total servitude to a landowner for most aspects of life. You don't travel. You don't get educated. You don't have upside. You can't escape. You're screwed. An unpaid internship is not at all like this. Unpaid internships are not "essentially a form of serfdom". No, but that's how serfdom started - t…

"Saying "you're free to walk away" is not a moral argument; if the only way a young person can find work is through doing voluntary servitude then they are stuck in that position until they do so." I disagree. My unpaid jobs have always been much more accommodating when I leave - they realize they're not paying me so they don't give me a hard time at all. It's more of an attitude of, "We knew this day would come. Goo…

You completely missed my point.

If unpaid internships become the norm, that is it becomes expected that a person has to perform a period of unpaid work as some kind of apprenticeship, then they will be forced to do so if they want a paid job at the end of it.

So I might walk away from an unpaid internship, but I'll still need to work unpaid in another internship until at such point employers deem that I've done my time.

Therefore the individual has no choice but to accept unpaid work - regardless of which company they happen to be working for.

It's a bad precedent that needs to be stamped out.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#55
I can't find the article right now, but there have been studies about and there is evidence for that many people will do something for free, but if offered to be paid a market rate that is low for the same work, will not do it. In fact, they'll be insulted by the low value ascribed to it.

Personally I would feel like an a-hole offering someone minimum wage to do intern-level work at our startup. Nor would I want it on my resume that I worked as a web developer for $8/hour. They do not want a market price that low on their skills. They'd rather have a free internship on paper.

That said, it does all depend on context. In fact during high school I worked in a bio lab for free for about 50 hours and then asked for a paid internship (which was minimum wage) during the summer. However I was a high-schooler, so this was cool. But I would not have taken (and in fact turned down) low-paying jobs after college. So I can see that context does matter, and I don't think it's fair to rip on all unpaid internships with the same stroke.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#56

I can't find the article right now, but there have been studies about and there is evidence for that many people will do something for free, but if offered to be paid a market rate that is low for the same work, will not do it. In fact, they'll be insulted by the low value ascribed to it. Personally I would feel like an a-hole offering someone minimum wage to do intern-level work at our startup. Nor would I want it o…

The whole low pay versus free psychology thing is tricky. It also depends on how the pay is structured. If you offer it as a low hourly rate, it'll probably be rejected, as opposed to working for some lumpsum at the end (or split into two). The second is typically more acceptable. Then instead of feeling like their labour is worth minimal wage, they feel like they're being paid for finishing a job.

shrug worked on me. 600 dollars for a parttime research thing during school for a term that worked out to $9 an hour, felt way better split into 2x300.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#58
This past year I followed a web development course. I'm now supposed to work 3 months for free. I don't mind it because I've been jobless for a long time before. The problem is, I just can't find an employer (in France). I get the interviews, but my interviewer always assumes that I'm supposed to know everything by heart, have nothing more to learn, and more importantly, they want to see a portfolio of sites I've done before other than the one I've done in class. Basically, they don't want an intern, they want a real, super-fast worker for free. So I'm going to fail at my diploma because nobody wants me to work for free for them. To make it worse, I'm the best student of my class. Those who can't code found an internship. Are we supposed to lie and bluff to be allowed to be exploited?

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#59

Perhaps it is different for design, but taking on an intern for a software shop is almost always a greater burden than benefit. I interned at a few different places while in college, and I was definitely way ahead of the class as far as writing useful code. Regardless, the overhead of people bringing you up to speed on their specific projects and processes for only three months of work just doesn't match what you are…

In software, if your company is any good, you hire good iterns and pay them a good wage to get an edge on hiring them once they graduate.

Plus, if you're hiring good interns, they will absolutely benefit you if you let them. Sometimes hugely.

An intern made Joel Spolsky several million dollars: http://www.inc.com/magazine/20090101/how-hard-could-it-be-th...

Not saying I was any good or my employer was any good, but at my first internship I wrote software in my free time that ended up saving the company tens of thousands of dollars a month.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#60
post #45

As this is Ireland I've got to assume there is also an element of trying to reduce the numbers who are technically unemployed and so make things look better. It sounds very familiar to the community employment schemes etc. from the '80s where people basically worked for their unemployment benefit so as to gain work experience / help the community. I can even remember being turned down at an interview for one of these…

I'm not sure if you can be on the unemployment register and still work in an internship. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the government isn't looking too deeply into the situation because it keeps the dole numbers down.
Post reply on HN