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Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

workspaceupdates.googleblog.com

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Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#501

Post by brabel »

sambroner wrote: post #173
pdkl95 wrote: post #99

Ever since WebAssembly was first introduced, I thought it was obvious[1][2] that the end game for those that want to control the web is sending opaque binary blobs of code that only use the browser for the canvas tag's framebuffer. Font rendering and layout can all easily be accomplished by embedding libraries like freetype. This breaks all forms of user control - like ad blockers - and turns the web back into cable…

Is this canvas actually rendered with WASM? I don't see WASM in dev tools on their sample doc. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1N1XaAI4ZlCUHNWJBXJUBFjxS...

You're right, there seems to be only JS code running in this example... and it performs very well for me, actually.

Everything people were complaining about seems to work just fine, including text selection and Ctrl+F!

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#502

Post by austincheney »

burlesona wrote: post #321
pdkl95 wrote: post #99

Ever since WebAssembly was first introduced, I thought it was obvious[1][2] that the end game for those that want to control the web is sending opaque binary blobs of code that only use the browser for the canvas tag's framebuffer. Font rendering and layout can all easily be accomplished by embedding libraries like freetype. This breaks all forms of user control - like ad blockers - and turns the web back into cable…

Just for what it’s worth, “word processors” are a logical starting point specifically because the APIs for text manipulation in the DOM are abysmal, and every in-browser WYSIWYG text editor is a steaming pile of hacks. Some of them work well despite this, but, it’s a horrible set of code to maintain and very, very hard to make a good user experience. One of the very hardest things to do well in the browser, actually.…

Whether or not it’s a trend will come down only to the commonality of skills in the marketplace for a given rate of pay.

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#503

Post by paxys »

vagrantJin wrote: post #438
bri3d wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A million times this - having worked in this space, nobody wants to do this. I understand the cynicism, but the affordances provided by the browser for things like accessibility are very painful to give up. This isn't some dark pattern attempt to cut out whatever "openness" remains on the web, or to convert the browser into a display-streaming client for some sinister DRM reason. In my past job, we rewrote our spread…

The dom isn't trash. Its good enough. We just need to stop making it do things it wasn't supposed to. That's why things like electron make sense a little bit. Not perfect but sensible.

That's the entire point. DOM is meant for structured web pages, not web apps. If you want to build complex web apps it is better to use your own renderer..which is exactly what Google is doing with Docs.

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#504

Post by silicon2401 »

rrrrrrrrrrrryan wrote: post #390
highwind wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes Google Docs a better product than MS Office? Can you provide some examples of features that are better in Google Docs?

Copy a few cells from a Google sheet and paste it in an email, then do the same with Excel. Collaborate on building out a document from scratch with 10 people in Google sheets vs Excel. Excel is a monster, and much more powerful than Google sheets in many ways, but in my experience, Google docs apps are a little better for collaboration, and they integrate a little tighter with each other.

Google sheets is the specific example that I hate. In my experience, it's often laggy and clunky. You can't even scroll smoothly: the window MUST snap to row/column lines. When I realized that google sheets has such a laughable shortcoming, I knew I needed to get out of google office eventually.

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#505

Post by agumonkey »

eitland wrote: post #411
ape4 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A dystopia. You can't control-F in the page. Can't copy and paste a word you don't know into a translator or dictionary. Can't share text unofficially - like copy a sentence into a email, etc.

So basically they are recreating the problems from Flash in 2021, but now using web standards ;-) ? Here's me almost hoping that ADA lawyers will have many field days with this tech. Edit: since this time there is no good excuse for it.

One step up, two step down.

Progress

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#506

Post by silicon2401 »

thayne wrote: post #79
silicon2401 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe this 100%. After using google office for years (just because it's free and cloud-based), I recently tried MS Word and Excel recently at work. The different was mind-blowing. I forgot just how functional and straightforward MS Office is compared to the clunky, barebones google options. If I wanted a desktop-first, cloud-backed solution, what would be the most future-proof and durable? Can I use Open Office a…

> Can I use Open Office across OSes? I would recommend Libreoffice over Openoffice, but yes (for both) And you can of course backup to your cloud service of choice. The main benefit of google docs, o365, etc. Is real-time collaboration. But there is no reason why a desktop app couldn't support realtime collaboration with a suitable backend service.

What do you prefer about Libreoffice? I've used both once or twice but not enough to really learn anything about them

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#507

Post by Sophira »

tshaddox wrote: post #331
hobs wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this like it wont be used to completely remove all user choice and be an utter disaster.

If a developer wants to “remove all user choice” on the web it’s already very easy for them to do that. The only new concern here is that developers will be tempted to use tools/frameworks for unrelated reasons (maybe convenience, cross-platform support, etc.) and those tools/frameworks will just happen to also remove user choice.

Except it's not that easy. Web developers have been trying to remove user choice all the time - disabling right-click menus, preventing copying on websites, forcing the page to look blank unless you turn JavaScript on - and yet it's fairly easy to get around most of this using extensions.

That's because how websites display information in the browser is pretty standardised. Before the Canvas element, your choice was basically HTML/CSS or nothing (unless you did something incredibly strange like rendering output to a data:image/png URL and updating an image tag with it).

The Canvas element, on the other hand, doesn't force a standard way of displaying information. It's essentially your dynamic data:image/png render output method on steroids, and users can't even use it unless they have JavaScript on. As it is, many sites are still usable even without JavaScript, including Hacker News.

Using Canvas means no user choice by default.

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#508

Post by nofunsir »

slver wrote: post #498
ape4 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A dystopia. You can't control-F in the page. Can't copy and paste a word you don't know into a translator or dictionary. Can't share text unofficially - like copy a sentence into a email, etc.

Do you honestly believe they won’t implement copying a sentence.

I honestly believe they WILL implement copy paste...

... along with tracking exactly what you copied, when, where you hovered your mouse, inserting all sorts of features into your copied piece of “plain text”

... along with the ability to force-turn off copying from server side whenever it benefits them.

You WILL use ChromeOS (by another name) and you WILL like it

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#509

Post by nonameiguess »

asciimov wrote: post #209
dahfizz wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet another reason to use Pi-hole. The web browser is the wrong place to try and fight against this sort of thing. Secure your home network once instead of fighting an arms race on each device you have.

Pi-hole wont protect you here, they will send the entire page, ads and all as an encrypted binary blob. Decrypting it is illegal, and since the data is coming from a single source Pi-hole can't block it. Pi-hole (and ad-blocking) days are numbered. Hopefully that day is further out than I dread.

It has to be decrypted at some point to be viewable, so if you have system administrator access to the OS and device your browser is running on, someone will figure out how to identify which pixels and which audio bits are ads and block them from making it to the frame buffer (and whatever the equivalent is for a sound card). Where there's a will there's a way. There has just not been a need for that yet.

It's just an arms race, and the makers of uBlock Origin will need to level up and figure out how to do some serious computer vision and heuristic anomaly detection.

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#510

Post by anthropodie »

ape4 wrote: post #257
stefan_ wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what Flutter on the web is, by the way. You can try it out here: https://gallery.flutter.dev/#/ and marvel at the impossible to select text, one of the many affordances violently excised here. If it wasn't still incredibly slow even on a cutting-edge Zen3, Nvidia 3070 system they might almost be on to something here.

A dystopia. You can't control-F in the page. Can't copy and paste a word you don't know into a translator or dictionary. Can't share text unofficially - like copy a sentence into a email, etc.

Flutter for web is not ready and flutter devs seriously should remove those demos because it's ruining reputation of Flutter for Android, iOS and Desktop which is absolutely a delight to work with. I never developed apps for mobile being a backend developer but now I have developed few in record time. Flutter for mobile is amazing and it's going to change the game.

I am not really sure about Flutter for web though.

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