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Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

workspaceupdates.googleblog.com

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Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#451

Post by rcxdude »

throwawayboise wrote: post #421
larodi wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was indeed a very strong marketing move for... decades to convince people, like smart people, that document editing can be a web-based thing. Actually, now that the browser is so ubiquitous that GUIs sit on top of it (think Electron), then is time to ask the very obvious question - since everyone seems to agree that universal GUI is needed (proof: the browser) then is the browser the right universal GUI? Not being…

The killer feature of Google Docs is the real-time collaboration. People willingly gave up a lot of editing and layout functionality to get that. It was so much better than sending drafts of documents back and forth in email.

That and just being able to send one to anyone to collaborate on it quickly. That's the big thing that makes web apps so compelling.

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#452

Post by agumonkey »

stefan_ wrote: post #237
pdkl95 wrote: post #99

Ever since WebAssembly was first introduced, I thought it was obvious[1][2] that the end game for those that want to control the web is sending opaque binary blobs of code that only use the browser for the canvas tag's framebuffer. Font rendering and layout can all easily be accomplished by embedding libraries like freetype. This breaks all forms of user control - like ad blockers - and turns the web back into cable…

This is what Flutter on the web is, by the way. You can try it out here: https://gallery.flutter.dev/#/ and marvel at the impossible to select text, one of the many affordances violently excised here. If it wasn't still incredibly slow even on a cutting-edge Zen3, Nvidia 3070 system they might almost be on to something here.

And I thought Gemini was not polished enough. It might be a beacon in this potential darkness

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#453

Post by nindalf »

vagrantJin wrote: post #438
bri3d wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A million times this - having worked in this space, nobody wants to do this. I understand the cynicism, but the affordances provided by the browser for things like accessibility are very painful to give up. This isn't some dark pattern attempt to cut out whatever "openness" remains on the web, or to convert the browser into a display-streaming client for some sinister DRM reason. In my past job, we rewrote our spread…

The dom isn't trash. Its good enough. We just need to stop making it do things it wasn't supposed to. That's why things like electron make sense a little bit. Not perfect but sensible.

> We just need to stop making it do things it wasn't supposed to

This is a thread about Google Docs. Your suggestion to the Docs team is to ... stop? Just shut down their product?

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#454

Post by EvanAnderson »

dahfizz wrote: post #419
EvanAnderson wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DNS over HTTPS and, eventually, certificate pinning in the WASM-based DoH client running inside your browser will render your Pi Hole useless. It'll all just be opaque TLS to your network gear. Network operators who legitimately need to control traffic on their networks are lumped in with human rights-violating nation states. That includes you on your network.

Can you substantiate any of that? DoH is a feature of the browser that can be configured or disabled. Firefox even disabled DoH automatically if it detects you are using a custom DNS server which blocks "potentially malicious content"[1]. [1] https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/firefox-dns-over-https

I'm not talking about the browser doing the name resolution. I'm talking about the opaque binary running inside the browser doing name resolution (either by way of DoH with a pinned certificate, or a custom name resolution protocol running over TLS). You won't get a say in what that opaque binary does (w/o modifying it).

Is anybody doing this now? I doubt it. Will somebody do it? Yeah. Definitely.

When the "browser" is an embedded device (like Google Chromecast devices hard-coded to use 8.8.8.8 for DNS) you'll have no configurability there either.

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#455

Post by mumblemumble »

brabel wrote: post #437
mumblemumble wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is 100% the reason why I decided not to use Flutter back when I was shopping. It probably would have reduced my developer effort considerably compared to basically every other option that made it to my short list, but I can't in good conscience build something that isn't accessible.

Flutter claims to be fully accessible: https://flutter.dev/docs/development/accessibility-and-local... Did you actually try it?

No, I just looked at the documentation and saw that it isn't supported on all the platforms I'd be targeting.

For example, that page you link is specific to iOS and Android targets. Nary a mention of what to do when you're targeting the Web. But it's also, at least as of when I did my comparison, explicitly not supported on at least some desktop targets.

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#456

Post by gentleman11 »

stefan_ wrote: post #237
pdkl95 wrote: post #99

Ever since WebAssembly was first introduced, I thought it was obvious[1][2] that the end game for those that want to control the web is sending opaque binary blobs of code that only use the browser for the canvas tag's framebuffer. Font rendering and layout can all easily be accomplished by embedding libraries like freetype. This breaks all forms of user control - like ad blockers - and turns the web back into cable…

This is what Flutter on the web is, by the way. You can try it out here: https://gallery.flutter.dev/#/ and marvel at the impossible to select text, one of the many affordances violently excised here. If it wasn't still incredibly slow even on a cutting-edge Zen3, Nvidia 3070 system they might almost be on to something here.

As a former angularjs user, I’m not keen to learn another framework that will get abandoned or replaced in a few years

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#457

Post by blackbrokkoli »

calderwoodra wrote: post #412
DrJokepu wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, you know, accessibility. This could be a real serious problem for people with disabilities.

Accessibility is a first class citizen in flutter. https://flutter.dev/docs/development/accessibility-and-local...

This is making a mockery of accessibility.

It's the equivalent of having a company that actively discriminates against everyone not passing a internally developed test to check whether you are a "neurotypical" and then respond to criticism by pointing at the wheelchair ramp you installed on one of your entrances.

If I can't copy paste words from your websites to put them into a translator, if I can only use your website when I use one of the two corporate-affiliate-selected screen readers (not even platform-agnostic ones), when I can't look at your website from anything that does not have 4+ cores and a 4G or better connection...saying accessiblity is a "first class citizen" or even citizen at all is laughable at best.

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#458

Post by baybal2 »

burlesona wrote: post #321
pdkl95 wrote: post #99

Ever since WebAssembly was first introduced, I thought it was obvious[1][2] that the end game for those that want to control the web is sending opaque binary blobs of code that only use the browser for the canvas tag's framebuffer. Font rendering and layout can all easily be accomplished by embedding libraries like freetype. This breaks all forms of user control - like ad blockers - and turns the web back into cable…

Just for what it’s worth, “word processors” are a logical starting point specifically because the APIs for text manipulation in the DOM are abysmal, and every in-browser WYSIWYG text editor is a steaming pile of hacks. Some of them work well despite this, but, it’s a horrible set of code to maintain and very, very hard to make a good user experience. One of the very hardest things to do well in the browser, actually.…

> every in-browser WYSIWYG text editor is a steaming pile of hacks.

Xforms 2.0, and other opportunities to have rich text in browser not suck were there for the browser maker to take in the last 15 years.

Instead they tried almost everything instead of choosing the most obvious solution, and fixing it.

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#459

Post by falcolas »

madeofpalk wrote: post #346
falcolas wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HTML and CSS are fantastic; when used what they were designed for. Document markup and display. I blame webapp developers for the scope creep and subsequent denigration of a perfectly reasonable set of standards.

I find it really hard to rationalise this thought with the thread... - WebAssembly + Canvas rendering is bad because it turns the web into a bunch of opaque blobs and removes user freedoms and abilities - The web should only be for documents, not applications - So it follows that... all the applications which are currently "open" websites should be opaque native app executables where you can't have extensions or adbl…

I'm not a web developer, so keep this in mind as I clarify.

Application development for browsers is, in a way, a stack of huge hacks on the top of huge hacks. Developers are using HTML and CSS for purposes they were never intended (e.g. a WYSIWYG word processor), and doing some really gnarly hacks to make it all work.

Those gnarly hacks required to make their applications work prejudice web application developers against HTML and CSS, since they don't work worth a damned for those developers.

But HTML and CSS work remarkably well for what they were designed for: Documents.

Applications have, historically, usually been distributed in a different format than documents. Perhaps they should resume that trend; targeting the browser just being the OS, and leaving the document standards for documents.

My knee jerk response to the original article was, "this is making the web less free," but a bit of thought raises the question, "I can't interact this way with Microsoft Word, so why do I expect to interact this way with Google Docs?"

Re: Google Docs will now use canvas based rendering

#460

Post by brabel »

stefan_ wrote: post #237
pdkl95 wrote: post #99

Ever since WebAssembly was first introduced, I thought it was obvious[1][2] that the end game for those that want to control the web is sending opaque binary blobs of code that only use the browser for the canvas tag's framebuffer. Font rendering and layout can all easily be accomplished by embedding libraries like freetype. This breaks all forms of user control - like ad blockers - and turns the web back into cable…

This is what Flutter on the web is, by the way. You can try it out here: https://gallery.flutter.dev/#/ and marvel at the impossible to select text, one of the many affordances violently excised here. If it wasn't still incredibly slow even on a cutting-edge Zen3, Nvidia 3070 system they might almost be on to something here.

I have to agree, it runs really slowly (really struggles on scrolling) on my Macbook Air from last year, which normally runs heavy JS sites just fine.

EDIT: to be fair, it runs quite smoothly on Safari and Google Chrome... only Firefox seems to have trouble with Flutter on the Web for some reason.

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