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Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

reuters.com

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Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#271

Post by happyjack »

Should USA chip production happen? Probably. But it won't happen without gov't subsidies. US labor is wayy more than some slave in a Foxconn factory trying to commit suicide by jumping off the building (hence the nets). I'm not saying I agree with subsidies, or think the USA should foot the bill, but the honest to god truth is that shareholders and board members WILL not approve of US companies paying for all this. No one wants to see their stock price drop.

How do you remedy this? Create a "National Security" issue and have Uncle Sam fund it. The military has the same playbook https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSJjlaggbK0 .

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#272

Post by cma »

rebelos wrote: post #261
coliveira wrote: post #173

It is funny that the US intelligentsia complains about China as being dominated by government, but there is nothing really big done in the US without huge costs for American tax payers, frequently without any retribution. This is clearly the next step: the US corporations created the "big enemy" China by exporting jobs there during the last 40 years, now they want the same taxpayers to pay for rebuilding the US indus…

It's getting really tired to blame companies for acting like rational agents against the natural laws of competitive global markets. Being against free trade works for an economy right up until it has fully squandered its competitive advantage (derived in great part in the modern world by leveraging comparative advantage) and then GDP and the tax base start collapsing. And then capital flight happens when the combina…

If we narrowly pursued our comparative advantage without government investing in tech all along we'd be just trading in furs and stuff.

We did just like China starting out, rather than be stuck undeveloped, enslaved to comparative advantage, we stole trade secrets from the more powerful nation, heavily subsidized R&D, and education (as you point out as a good thing), etc. See for instance "Slater the Traitor" as the British knew him:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_Slater

If the WTO existed back then we might have gotten invaded and blockaded over it.

All the Asian tiger countries avoided almost all of our free trade advice and did heavily protectionist policies in order to achieve their rapid development. Most of the countries that bought into it remained third world, pursuing their comparative advantage as an undeveloped nation against developed ones, which seems to basically be shorthand for having their natural resources looted.

The book Bad Samaritans goes into how that development occurred in S. Korea, and other similar countries that successfully broke out of the comparative advantage trap:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B003Z9L4NA

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#273

Post by rebelos »

cma wrote: post #272
rebelos wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's getting really tired to blame companies for acting like rational agents against the natural laws of competitive global markets. Being against free trade works for an economy right up until it has fully squandered its competitive advantage (derived in great part in the modern world by leveraging comparative advantage) and then GDP and the tax base start collapsing. And then capital flight happens when the combina…

If we narrowly pursued our comparative advantage without government investing in tech all along we'd be just trading in furs and stuff. We did just like China starting out, rather than be stuck undeveloped, enslaved to comparative advantage, we stole trade secrets from the more powerful nation, heavily subsidized R&D, and education (as you point out as a good thing), etc. See for instance "Slater the Traitor" as the…

> If we narrowly pursued our comparative advantage without government investing in tech

Why are you holding government R&D as mutually exclusive of free trade policy and an open economy?

> we'd be just trading in furs and stuff.

Asinine straw man.

> rather than be stuck undeveloped, enslaved to comparative advantage, we stole trade secrets from the more powerful nation, heavily subsidized R&D

Either/or fallacy once again.

> All the Asian tiger countries avoided almost all of our free trade advice and did heavily protectionist policies in order to achieve their rapid development.

This statement is laughably false. Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea, and Taiwan are practically famous for having leveraged free trade and open economies to catapult to economic stardom.

On the whole, this is a stunningly poor counterargument. It's so lacking in sense that it reads like it was generated by GPT-3.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#274

Post by chii »

RhodoGSA wrote: post #257
threeseed wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At this point there is very little economic sanctions US could impose on China that Trump didn't already either try or talk about. And anything with teeth will never work whilst US companies build everything in China. So for me a short military dispute is more likely. No one is expecting war this year. There will be 3 Ford Class carriers by 2030 and 5 by 2040. As well as the Nimitz class which are still better than w…

China has too much USD denominated debt to last against a protracted trade war.

That's not really true - china uses the USD they own to peg the RMB to enhance their export.

In times of war, this USD debt is going to be a liability for china, since the US can just refuse to repay it (and after all, what else is china going to do about? Declare war again?).

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#275

Post by chii »

threeseed wrote: post #228
voidfunc wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10 years ago I would agree without challenge that the US would defend Taiwan if necessary. Less sure about that these days. Even if we would go to war, its probably a war we would prefer not to have to fight even if the weapons used stay conventional. It's the kind of situation that changes the course of history in a big way for the loser. Nobody wants to be the Spanish after the defeat of the Armada of the 21st cent…

US world order centres around its word. If allies can't depend on US to defend them then it opens up all sorts of possibilities none of which are in the best interests of the US or those that value democracy. For example closest allies like Australia for example would have no choice but to capitulate and bow down to China's whims. This would include ending the Five Eyes security arrangement and allowing Huawei to ope…

> US world order centres around its word.

Crimea begs to differ...

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#276

Post by chii »

Arrath wrote: post #245
voidfunc wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacking mainland China seems like a great way to end up in a very bad Nuclear conflict.

China declared decades ago that they follow a No First Use policy in regards to nuclear weapons. Of course, whether that holds true if boots land on their soil, who knows.

declarations are pointless, but the US is unlikely to put boots on land in china. The last Korean war, the US decided not to do it (invade into chinese territory), and china was much weaker back then.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#277

Post by cma »

rebelos wrote: post #273
cma wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we narrowly pursued our comparative advantage without government investing in tech all along we'd be just trading in furs and stuff. We did just like China starting out, rather than be stuck undeveloped, enslaved to comparative advantage, we stole trade secrets from the more powerful nation, heavily subsidized R&D, and education (as you point out as a good thing), etc. See for instance "Slater the Traitor" as the…

> If we narrowly pursued our comparative advantage without government investing in tech Why are you holding government R&D as mutually exclusive of free trade policy and an open economy? > we'd be just trading in furs and stuff. Asinine straw man. > rather than be stuck undeveloped, enslaved to comparative advantage, we stole trade secrets from the more powerful nation, heavily subsidized R&D Either/or fallacy once a…

> This statement is laughably false. Hong Kong, Singapore, South Korea, and Taiwan are practically famous for having leveraged free trade and open economies to catapult to economic stardom.

The state played a heavy role in all of them:

"The four countries were inspired by Japan's evident success, and they collectively pursued the same goal by investing in the same categories: infrastructure and education."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Asian_Tigers

Re: protectionism and South Korea I think Ha-Joon Chang covered the development of their steel industry (a later big force behind their "free trade" auto industry) for an example of extreme protectionism in the book I linked. Samsung is practically corporate-state.

Once capabilities are developed and become a comparative advantage for a state, they encourage free trade in them and attack others' subsidies as being protectionist by benefiting the upstart state's local industry instead of pursuing comparative advantage in menial labor, natural resources, etc. (Chang's book Kicking Away the Ladder is about this I think).

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#278

Post by spfzero »

Dah00n wrote: post #197
tpmx wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I suspect that you don't realize that Taiwan is a (to many) surprisingly first-world place. "environmental and human rights externalities" is not a very large issue in this context. It's not like mainland China/PRC. 2. I think both e.g. US and EU should have their own chip-manufacturing infrastructure. We need more robustness at a global scale in this area. 3. Taiwan needs (and deserves) US/EU support. TSMC has tu…

Taiwan needs support yes, but the US isn't helping. Poking China by sending warships to patrol its borders makes us the bad guys. If China did what we do we would have WW3 instantly.

It almost sounds like you are saying that if China sailed ships in international waters it would start a war. They do that all the time, and have been doing so for decades. Did I miss a world war?

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#279

Post by spfzero »

Siira wrote: post #187
elzbardico wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and this not only because of fiscal reasons, but because it is the ethical thing to do.

It's ethical how? By making rich Americans even richer, and removing one of the few ways developing countries can enter the global market?

Which “developing” countries are running world class fabs these days? Taiwan and South Korea are definitely first-world countries, as much so as the US.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#280

Post by systemvoltage »

spfzero wrote: post #278
Dah00n wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taiwan needs support yes, but the US isn't helping. Poking China by sending warships to patrol its borders makes us the bad guys. If China did what we do we would have WW3 instantly.

It almost sounds like you are saying that if China sailed ships in international waters it would start a war. They do that all the time, and have been doing so for decades. Did I miss a world war?

Before there is an inevitable response “But, China doesn’t patrol 100km off the coast of US” - yes, also China has no allies with defense treaties near US, ie Mexico and Canada. In fact, China has just one ally - North Korea.
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