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Amazon will end affiliate program in California if new law passes

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Re: Amazon will end affiliate program in California if new law passes

#131

Post by zacharypinter »

evgen wrote: post #126
SoftwareMaven wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can totally understand why Amazon doesn't want to have to collect municipal sales tax. Every city in my state has a different potential tax rate, with a percentage determined by the state, by the county, by whether the city participates in mass transit, etc. Same zip codes have different taxes. Trying to manage that across the country is an ugly proposition! At least the EU has chosen a single VAT (even if it is ou…

I only we had machines which could perform these difficult lookups for us, and directories of information that could be queried to determine which taxes apply for a given address, along with some way for these machines to communicate so that different tax jurisdictions could keep the sales tax information current... Oh, that's right, we do. The claim that determining the applicable sales tax for any given shipping/bi…

I disagree.

One small example: many jurisdictions tax different categories of items at different rates. This means that you'd have to start off by knowing those rules and categorizing everything accordingly. After that, you have tons of edge cases to work out, e.g., what happens if I group two different categories of items into a special package? What percentage of the package is taxed at what rate? Or, what if different states categorize the same item in different ways? Or, what happens when you provide a service to sellers and then need the sellers to accurately provide all of this categorization for every jurisdiction?

Of all companies, Amazon probably has the best chance of getting this all figured out if they really had to. However, calling it difficult is by no means BS.

Re: Amazon will end affiliate program in California if new law passes

#132

Post by jbooth »

cek wrote: post #125
jbooth wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, for criminy.. you know what I meant, right? California even has those ballot measures, the citizens vote on taxation policy on a regular basis. The "government of the people, by the people and for the people" has a right, in the people's name, if you'd prefer.

Glad to hear that's what you meant. But many people (especially those in government) seem to forget this.

Capital G. "G"overnment. Sounds scarier.

Re: Amazon will end affiliate program in California if new law passes

#133

Post by jbooth »

brianleb wrote: post #130
jbooth wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look, if we want a competitive marketplace, it makes sense that everyone operates under the same tax constraints. This isn't a pro-tax, anti-tax, pro or anti commerce clause thing. It's just basic economics, the best services will float to the top that way.

Everyone /is/ operating under the same tax constraints. The difference is, your local retailers aren't selling their products out of state like Amazon.

So you're saying that the tax system favors shipping things across states by design? It's not just an accident that fell out of the tax code?

Can you explain the benefits? Why would we want to tax local goods and not goods that are shipped across state boundaries?

Re: Amazon will end affiliate program in California if new law passes

#134

Post by 9999 »

abalashov wrote: post #104

So, what exactly is deemed "presence?" Apparently an Amazon distribution center in Texas was deemed "presence" a while back. On the other hand, surely Amazon operates a fairly extensive network of data centers, warehouses, and other fixed-location logistical inputs in California? Is that "presence?" Where is the distinction lie?

Yes, I'm really not clear on that either. Can someone with a legal background provide some clarification?

Re: Amazon will end affiliate program in California if new law passes

#135

Post by guelo »

T-hawk wrote: post #35
pavel_lishin wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love it when everyone works together to make a lose/lose/lose situation happen.

Yup. Politicians and governments are, by and large, oblivious to the fact that laws induce behavioral changes. Like extending unemployment benefits to 99 weeks, then somehow being surprised when the rate increases of people staying on unemployment rather than finding jobs. Or creating a tax credit for low-income families who have children, then being surprised when the low-income birth rate increases. In the politici…

> extending unemployment benefits to 99 weeks ... people staying on unemployment rather than finding jobs

> tax credit for low-income families who have children ... low-income birth rate increases

Citations please

Re: Amazon will end affiliate program in California if new law passes

#136

Post by gte910h »

jbooth wrote: post #31
throw_away wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

actually there are far more than 50, as many counties and municipalities have their own sales tax rates on top of their state's rate. not only that, but it is far more complex than just one fixnum per jurisdiction as each is able to establish rules on what is taxed and what is not. the prime example is food, where the local laws on what counts as non-taxed food always seem a bit byzantine.

Thanks, you're completely right. I'd still note that every single national retailer manages to do it ok.

OK?

No, they spends tons getting it right. Especially stores who sell food and non-food items.

Re: Amazon will end affiliate program in California if new law passes

#137

Post by DanLivesHere »

Hisoka wrote: post #48

I suspect Amazon secretly wish they could just get rid of their entire affiliate program. If it was so profitable, they wouldn't be getting rid of affiliates left and right. If you think about it, most people who buy thru an Amazon affiliate link probably would've bought it from Amazon anyway (due to its huge brand recognition, dominance in Google, etc). So, when an affiliate refers a sale, sometimes they're losing m…

This is incredibly unlikely.

Bringing people to a store, virtual or otherwise, is incredibly valuable for that store. Amazon has literally 1000s of people doing that, constantly. Instead of finding a good/best price on an iPod, I send people to Amazon, etc. Don't underestimate that value.

Re: Amazon will end affiliate program in California if new law passes

#138

Post by pavel_lishin »

T-hawk wrote: post #118
cheez wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yup. Politicians and governments are, by and large, oblivious to the fact that laws induce behavioral changes. Come on. Politicians are some of the smartest people in the society. Do you really think they are oblivious or do you think they're just looking out for #1?

The closest answer would be willful obliviousness. Like how voting for war funding means borrowing the money from sometime in the future. Politicians know these consequences on some level, but willfully just push them out of consideration. Whatever politicians pushed this in California were counting up the tax revenue that would be collected from Amazon. They couldn't have truly been ignorant that Amazon would pull o…

Nothing that happens after you're out of office matters.

Re: Amazon will end affiliate program in California if new law passes

#139

Post by mkramlich »

_delirium wrote: post #108
btilly wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. They are shell corporations that happen to be owned by Amazon. I don't know how they are affected by this bill. But it will be interesting to see what happens with it.

Texas is trying to go after Amazon shell companies; I'm not sure if California has tried that route. In Texas, there are two companies involved: Amazon.com.kydc, Inc. is a wholly owned subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. The sole business of the former is to operate physical facilities, some of which are in Texas, and which provide warehousing and shipment of books for the latter. Texas argues that this constitutes Amazon…

So Amazon has physical buildings in Texas, and Amazon disagrees with that state's position that they have a physical presence in Texas. Only a lawyer could argue for such a twisted interpretation of reality with a straight face.

Re: Amazon will end affiliate program in California if new law passes

#140

Post by emmett »

mkramlich wrote: post #139
_delirium wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Texas is trying to go after Amazon shell companies; I'm not sure if California has tried that route. In Texas, there are two companies involved: Amazon.com.kydc, Inc. is a wholly owned subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. The sole business of the former is to operate physical facilities, some of which are in Texas, and which provide warehousing and shipment of books for the latter. Texas argues that this constitutes Amazon…

So Amazon has physical buildings in Texas, and Amazon disagrees with that state's position that they have a physical presence in Texas. Only a lawyer could argue for such a twisted interpretation of reality with a straight face.

Amazon owns a company that has physical buildings in Texas, and disagrees as to whether that constitutes a tax nexus or not. Pretty easy to argue with a straight face! Tax law is a matter of technicality, not "does it seem about right".
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