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Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

reuters.com

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Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#121

Post by zepto »

cryptofistMonk wrote: post #108
zepto wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Other governments are always going to subsidize though (unless you work that into the trade deals I suppose). Often trade deals do include agreements about subsidies. > it's not clear if there's a market for more expensive US chips - if there were, you'd think someone would build it without the need for a subsidy They wouldn’t be more expensive with the subsidy.

> Often trade deals do include agreements about subsidies. Yes but it's complicated when you're dealing with China where the govt is heavily involved in many "private" cos

Agreed

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#122

Post by sbeller »

andutu wrote: post #119

People mention how building new fabs in the U.S would be a worthwhile yet extremely costly and risky investment that require a monumental undertaking that could only be done through massive tech firms and the U.S government. What I don't see mentioned too often is promoting chip design. Compared to building a fab, making a startup that simply designs chips should be straightforward but through my initial research int…

> but hardware startups seem to be few and far

back then I used to watch all the videos of https://millcomputing.com/docs/belt/ as that seemed promising, but they seem to be stuck in the hardware production and writing a compiler for that architecture.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#123

Post by Covzire »

Traster wrote: post #93

The problem with this governmental intervention is that you can't have it both ways. These companies want the governmetn to step in to hlp them with their problems, but let's take a look - are they going to contribute back once the government has intervened? What are they really proposing, a 20% revenue tax on consumer products that are sold with these new US sourced chips? No. Of course not. God forbid they actually…

Just to play devil's advocate, what would the world look like had there been massive investment 5-10 years ago? The benefits would probably have been a chip shortage that wasn't and we'd be free to complain about other things.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#124

Post by sbeller »

leesalminen wrote: post #110
elevation wrote: post #102

Even if this consortium constructs a North American fab, a single natural disaster near that fab could wreak the same follow-on effects in the headlines today; the underlying problem isn't only that we've outsourced our critical manufacturing, but also that we keep so little buffer that any disruption could cause today's headlines. The MBAs running US manufacturers need to scrap their JIT strategies, build some wareh…

> The MBAs running US manufacturers need to scrap their JIT strategies, build some warehouses, and start keeping a store of the essentials. Just the other day here on HN I read an account from a founder who did just that- in early 2008. He ended up having a warehouse full of raw materials and no cash to make payroll. That's one way a business dies. So, this talking point sounds good, those damn MBAs and their JITs!,…

cash it the most important thing that should not be done JIT. ;-)

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#125

Post by fuzzer37 »

jvanderbot wrote: post #63

Well, TSMC had 2020 revenue in the 30 giga-$ range. Even a few 3% sales tax on that revenue would pay for a 5 giga-$ investment in 5 years. (or a few F-35's / year) That's grossly optimistic numbers, given US labor costs, startup costs, etc, but it's also potentially a reasonable investment that would be sustained by domestic and international purchases (one would hope).

What is a giga-buck?

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#126

Post by Covzire »

fmakunbound wrote: post #87

Why would firms like TSMC be members of this lobbying group? https://www.chipsinamerica.org/about/

Possibly hedging their bets. If China invades and conquers Taiwan, presumably the heads of TSMC would be able to flee to America and keep a chunk of their investments.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#127

Post by jedberg »

lostlogin wrote: post #103
ohashi wrote: post #99

If the US tax payer gets a significant stake in the chip fab venture, I would be OK with this. We want to secure national security via chip manufacturing and you want billions of dollars? Give us some upside. I don't want to hear it creates jobs, it generates blah blah blah, a real equity stake and possibly repayment of the capital. Creating jobs should be a happy by-product of subsidizing an industry that is probabl…

> Amazon, Apple, Google, and Microsoft had 526 billion dollars between the four of them in cash reserves. Presumably they would cooperate and do something about it if they saw the current situation as too risky?

They are doing something -- forming a lobby group to get the government to pay for it. That's much cheaper than actually paying for it themselves.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#128

Post by Mountain_Skies »

elevation wrote: post #102

Even if this consortium constructs a North American fab, a single natural disaster near that fab could wreak the same follow-on effects in the headlines today; the underlying problem isn't only that we've outsourced our critical manufacturing, but also that we keep so little buffer that any disruption could cause today's headlines. The MBAs running US manufacturers need to scrap their JIT strategies, build some wareh…

Isn't one of the problems that JIT was made to solve that there is a tax on inventory? That the government punishes you for maintaining slack in the manufacturing chain by taxing it?

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#129

Post by brokencode »

I think the government just needs to change incentives so that companies stop offshoring everything. Tariffs are much maligned for increasing costs for consumers, but that seems like the most efficient way for getting companies to make stuff here.

Instead of corporate welfare like these rich companies clearly want, why don’t we take the tariff money and use that to fund regular welfare, such as some of the programs Biden is suggesting.

Or maybe we could just take all the tariff money and divide it equally amongst all citizens? That should offset the tariff for the average person, while still allowing us to get companies to figure out the problem for themselves.

That approach can be extended to taxes on pollution as well. Capitalism does work, and we need to recognize that, but it has to be guided and regulated appropriately, or it gets really greedy really fast.

Re: Tech giants join call for funding U.S. chip production

#130

Post by jedberg »

fuzzer37 wrote: post #125
jvanderbot wrote: post #63

Well, TSMC had 2020 revenue in the 30 giga-$ range. Even a few 3% sales tax on that revenue would pay for a 5 giga-$ investment in 5 years. (or a few F-35's / year) That's grossly optimistic numbers, given US labor costs, startup costs, etc, but it's also potentially a reasonable investment that would be sustained by domestic and international purchases (one would hope).

What is a giga-buck?

1 billion.
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