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Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

andarilhoacordado.medium.com

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Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#31

Post by Grieving »

NoPie wrote: post #29
oceanghost wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Came here to say this. My best friends daughter is 10, and non-verbal. She can barely dress herself and can't tie her shoes. It's heartbreaking. For every Elon Must there has to be a hundreds of thousands of kids like this.

But for every kid like this there could be 10 austistic people with average or even above average IQ. Honestly I don't know but if autism is due to genetic differences then greater proportion will be with slight deviations from normal population. In fact, Elon Must said that he has Asperger's. Some prefer to avoid this label but I find it very useful to actually distinguish autistic people with average IQ (or better)…

I agree. I was diagnosed with high-functioning autism when I was younger, and assumed that autism referred to people fairly similar to me.

Then my daughter was born. She's extremely low-functioning with only basic non-verbal communication (pulling me to the door means "let's go outside"; pulling me to the kitchen means "I'm hungry"). We've done PECS boards, AAC devices, ASL, etc, and she'll use them occasionally but they frustrate her. She has almost no instinct of self-preservation and a fascination with water, so will eagerly jump into a body of water if she has the chance; likewise when we go for a walk she doesn't understand that she can't just run out into traffic. Screaming and self-injury are constant and extreme.

Which is to say that I don't think she and I have the same condition. Maybe there's a common genetic basis, but her quality of life is unimaginably worse. I get annoyed often by the 'disability advocates' who more resemble me and want to speak for people like her.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#32

Post by seba_dos1 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #3
deadite wrote: post #2

>But we can conclude, and with absolute confidence: Elon Musk is not more intelligent than I am, or you. We’re different. Yeah okay.

I'm pretty sure Elon Musk is much more intelligent than I am. I don't know why there's such a taboo over saying some people are more intelligent than others. It's not a moral judgment or a be-all-and-end-all of a person's value.

> I'm pretty sure Elon Musk is much more intelligent than I am.

Just wondering - what exactly makes you think so?

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#33

Post by chrisseaton »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #32
chrisseaton wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure Elon Musk is much more intelligent than I am. I don't know why there's such a taboo over saying some people are more intelligent than others. It's not a moral judgment or a be-all-and-end-all of a person's value.

> I'm pretty sure Elon Musk is much more intelligent than I am. Just wondering - what exactly makes you think so?

Very long stream of very successful business decisions.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#34

Post by gregjor »

jart wrote: post #27
gregjor wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it’s “hurtful,” or at least ignorant, to imply that people with autism spectrum disorders need to be allowed or made to do anything. Good intentions aside, bad information doesn’t help anyone. I was diagnosed as “borderline autistic” as a child and was later told I showed signs of Asperger’s. I’ve never thought of it as an identity, just a glitch in my personality. It’s a disorder in the sense that it sometim…

And how did people like the author treat you as a child?

I don’t know what the author is like, so I can’t say. I’ve shared all I’m willing to share about my life. Like everyone else, I’ve had to deal with my personality quirks. Like everyone else I’ve had to adapt and learn how to get along in the world. I don’t identify myself with diagnostic names attached to symptoms.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#35

Post by seba_dos1 »

chrisseaton wrote: post #33
seba_dos1 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm pretty sure Elon Musk is much more intelligent than I am. Just wondering - what exactly makes you think so?

Very long stream of very successful business decisions.

So what you're saying is that given the exact set of capital, connections, knowledge and market conditions that Musk initially had you wouldn't be able to make business decisions like he did because you're not intelligent enough?

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#36

Post by chrisseaton »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #35
chrisseaton wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very long stream of very successful business decisions.

So what you're saying is that given the exact set of capital, connections, knowledge and market conditions that Musk initially had you wouldn't be able to make business decisions like he did because you're not intelligent enough?

I doubt it. It takes intelligence to make the best of those resources to create a success.

What's so unlikely to you about the idea that he's relatively intelligent and that's played a part in his success?

People want to pretend it's all luck and connections. I don't think it is, and I think people pretend that to make themselves feel like they could have done it if only they had the same resources.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#37

Post by filoleg »

seba_dos1 wrote: post #35
chrisseaton wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very long stream of very successful business decisions.

So what you're saying is that given the exact set of capital, connections, knowledge and market conditions that Musk initially had you wouldn't be able to make business decisions like he did because you're not intelligent enough?

Cannot answer for the parent commenter, but I know I wouldn't be able to make decisions like he did.

Just for one specific example: even if I was in his exact situation back then, I wouldn't mortgage out my house, ask friends and family for loans, cash out all of my savings, and then dump it all into my failing green energy startup during its "make it or break it moment". But he did, and none of what Tesla/SpaceX are presently would have been possible if he didn't make that decision.

And that's just one extreme thing that he did that I know for a fact I wouldn't have been able to do, even with the resources and everything else he had.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#38

Post by jart »

gregjor wrote: post #34
jart wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And how did people like the author treat you as a child?

I don’t know what the author is like, so I can’t say. I’ve shared all I’m willing to share about my life. Like everyone else, I’ve had to deal with my personality quirks. Like everyone else I’ve had to adapt and learn how to get along in the world. I don’t identify myself with diagnostic names attached to symptoms.

But that's exactly what makes you different, according to the medical literature. Normal people deal with their personality quirks without thinking about it. That's what makes them normal. With you, it required an act of willpower. Just like, if normal people wanted to innovate, it would require an act of willpower on their part; whereas for you, you've been doing it your whole life.

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#39

Post by camehere3saydis »

chrisseaton wrote: post #17
camehere3saydis wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not a moral judgment or a be-all-and-end-all of a person's value. But it is, even though it actually means nothing at all. Let me try and explain. Our society prides itself on being both rational and egalitarian at the same time. Its most basic ideological paradigm basically says: "everyone is equal". Of course, that is a meaningless statement - people themselves are not quantities to be measured and compared;…

> this is more or less equivalent to saying "this person is inherently superior than that person" Strong disagree. Intelligence is not a more valuable attribute than any other. Concrete example: there's no point being a more intelligent officer in the Army if you aren't able to physically get yourself to the fight in time and someone else who's less intelligent but is more fit is there on time to have an impact.

>a more intelligent person is inherently superior

I also disagree with this statement.

>a "more intelligent" person is defined as "having more consciousness" which, in a system that ascribes value to humanity and consciousness, is equivalent to saying that a more intelligent person is "more of a person", and therefore inherently "superior in value"

This is what I meant. Do you still disagree with this statement?

And, well... should I make my posts more detailed or less, considering they fail to communicate the idea? Or should I go back to just saying nothing?

Re: Autism is a “disorder” only because the world is neurotypical

#40

Post by gregjor »

jart wrote: post #38
gregjor wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know what the author is like, so I can’t say. I’ve shared all I’m willing to share about my life. Like everyone else, I’ve had to deal with my personality quirks. Like everyone else I’ve had to adapt and learn how to get along in the world. I don’t identify myself with diagnostic names attached to symptoms.

But that's exactly what makes you different, according to the medical literature. Normal people deal with their personality quirks without thinking about it. That's what makes them normal. With you, it required an act of willpower. Just like, if normal people wanted to innovate, it would require an act of willpower on their part; whereas for you, you've been doing it your whole life.

But I'm not different in that respect. Everyone has different abilities. No individual is "normal," that's a statistical artifact. Everyone has personality quirks, whether they are aware of them or not, and has to adapt their personality constantly. I don't think of my quirks and shortcomings as disabilities or medical issues, anymore than I would think a left-handed person has a disorder, even if they aren't (statistically) normal.

That's not to say everyone who suffers from autism or any other physical or mental disorder can just will themselves to overcome it, or adapt -- some people have seriously debilitating problems. I have been around severely autistic children and I can't compare my experience to theirs, like I can't compare my inability to dance to someone in a wheelchair.

"Normal" people innovate all the time, I imagine that takes an act of willpower for everyone. I haven't been innovating my whole life, just dealing with it one day at a time like everyone else does.

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