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Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

babeljs.io

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Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#511

Good work so far but why does an OSS tool have to be supported by Silicon Valley salaries? USA and it's biggest cities are already hugely competitive even for profit making enterprises. Even a company like Mozilla with real commercial partnerships and solid income every year can struggle, let alone a tool which is barely noticeable by 90% of users.

> but why does an OSS tool have to be supported by Silicon Valley salaries?

Because these high profile OSS tools generally have trouble finding core maintainers/contributors.

It's easy enough to find people who will contribute a couple of PRs, it's another to get people to handle the ownership and product/project management responsibilities. Even rarer on a reasonably complex project (not that many people find working on something like Babel "fun". It's not sexy like some of the other high profile OSS projects in the JS ecosystem).

Core-js' maintainer has begged for someone to help forever (dunno if he finally found someone). The JS minifier space was nearly abandoned until significant issues brought them back in the spot light. Webpack was struggling until someone stepped up to be their de facto marketer.

If someone wants to do the work for half the money, go ahead. It's just...rare.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Babel is one of the most popular and widely-used tools in the history of web development. Why should its developers and maintainers not make at least as much money as entry-level Silicon Valley developers?

Why should they make more than senior engineers with decades of experience in Berlin? Why should customers/users of the project have to pay/donate twice or thrice as much for the same result, just because the devs want to live in the US instead of e.g. Paris?

Because one of the primary "competing" project (TypeScript) is developed on payroll of a FAAMG.

With that said, nothing stopping those people in Berlin from stepping up to other high profile open source projects that are looking for maintainers, raise the same amount of money, and essentially be twice as well off.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#513

Earlier quoted context omitted.

deleted

> $130k in the United States is a joke You are out of touch my friend. I think you can cool it on the anger here too. It’s not helpful.

Neither is people piling on the maintainer of Babel based on GitHub activity and someone essentially accusing them of embezzlement. Sorry if that makes me upset.

$130k for a senior developer in the United States is nothing. People at FANG are making 3-4x that annually.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#515

The salary discussion aside. That's what I have always been ad odds with OSS. Nobody is forcing you to put it up for free. Put a price tag on it an sell it. If it doesn't sell, lower the price. If it still doesn't sell, good. Stop trying to force adoption on software that cannot sustain itself. Nobody ever heard oracle scrambling for cash.

The OSS/donation model is a reaction to how hard it is to sell libraries and dev tools. Between competing open source projects and piracy, it's a race to zero anyway.

The moment Babel actually has to be sold for $1 is the moment it dies and everyone still using Babel switches to alternate compilers.

The project is surviving on fame, and donation's the easiest way to fund that.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $130k in the United States is a joke You are out of touch my friend. I think you can cool it on the anger here too. It’s not helpful.

Neither is people piling on the maintainer of Babel based on GitHub activity and someone essentially accusing them of embezzlement. Sorry if that makes me upset. $130k for a senior developer in the United States is nothing. People at FANG are making 3-4x that annually.

> $130k for a senior developer in the United States is nothing. People at FANG are making 3-4x that annually.

Right, hence my out of touch comment. This just doubles down.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he was a smaller fraction of the work force, that would make sense. But if you have a single full-time worker who is receiving about 2/3 of the payroll budget, I'd argue that you can't afford for them to spend most of their hours on business stuff.

Business stuff is what pays the bills. You can't have 2/3 of the work force just merging PRs and find out 6 months later that nobody paid the taxes and you won't be bringing in enough money to make payroll next month.

I wasn't saying not to do administrative tasks, but that they shouldn't be over half your entire company's work-hour allocation. Even with fundraising in there too.

Imagine if you had 3 employees and 2 of them were HR. That is not a good allocation of labor.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#518
Babel has always struck me as the lowest-quality highest-profile tool that exists in the JS ecosystem. Their website and documentation are unorganized and unhelpful beyond the most basic usage — transpiring JSX.

I had some thought of implementing threading operators (like Clojure), and was happy to see existing proposals. But then I went searching for the implementation of those proposals and subsequent PRs and such. As my ultimately fruitless search dragged on, I kept saying to myself, “Who is in charge of this shit-show?”

Well, I finally have my answer. No one is in charge. It seems to me that Babel’s survival hinges upon one decision at Facebook to either create their own JSX transpiler or to switch from Babel to something else.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#519
post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that's really rare, right?

It seems to be MIT licensed, and if so then maybe anyone could. But probably the actual authors have the most legitimacy and knowledge.

when I asked seb about this (because I was a little surprised) he said FB wants to use it too

edit: so... they don't have to pay him + they get the benefit

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither is people piling on the maintainer of Babel based on GitHub activity and someone essentially accusing them of embezzlement. Sorry if that makes me upset. $130k for a senior developer in the United States is nothing. People at FANG are making 3-4x that annually.

> $130k for a senior developer in the United States is nothing. People at FANG are making 3-4x that annually. Right, hence my out of touch comment. This just doubles down.

Not sure what you're taking issue with here.
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