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Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

nature.com

261–270 of 324 posts

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, I haven't had COVID, but other people having it has certainly ruined my year and everyone else's regardless. There's a lot more at stake than just your personal health.

Agreed, but what do you propose? We will never have 100% of people get the vaccine due to either personal choice or medical conditions.

Right now, there is no cost to not being vaccinated, but it does cause damage to society. Its an economic externality. So we should do same thing we do with any other externalities such as pollution: you legislate to bring cost in line with the damage being imposed on others.

I don't think this should mean jail time, but anything from being barred from public spaces like schools or government jobs, to tax penalties, should be on the table in my opinion. I'm all for freedom of choice, but I'm against freeloading. No one should have to take the vaccine if they don't want to, but they shouldn't be able to participate in all the benefits of society while refusing to do their part in keeping that society functional.

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Authority is constantly used as an effective source of trust in science.

There is also a massive reproducibility crisis in science, and the two points are not not unrelated.

The “reproducibility crisis” is largely overblown. Individual scientific papers have always been close to junk on average. Look at a wide swath of papers from say the 1950’s or even 1850’s and you see not just poor methods but also outright fraud.

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you already have an appointment the only debate should be whether you will need an additional third booster shot in the future if the strain in India breaks out and is different enough. The key thing you should notice about the COVID vaccine detractors is their inability to distinguish between vaccines and the wildly different technology between the different vaccines, alongside their inability acknowledge the geo…

So why is there no traditional vaccine? I trust Sinovac. It's inactive virus vaccine, and they ship raw materials[1] to other countries and say "build it yourself" at manufacturers that have no connection to the Chinese government. Bill Gates on the other hand says these vaccines are too complex and that safety and security issues[2] make it impossible for anyone else to produce these vaccines. The media keep saying…

Except that the experience of Chile, and Seychelles in particular is bringing Sinopharm's efficacy into question. I'm very interested in Novavax also but it keeps facing regulatory and production issues.

Both I and my wife had the J&J vaccine a couple months ago. We had a period of about 12, maybe 18 hours of feeling like we had a light case of the flu, and fine since. The J&J and AZ vaccines also use your cells produce spike proteins but do it with a different way (adenovirus vector) than the mRNA vaccines.

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. If you are talking about pre-existing immunity from prior infection, the benefit may be less, and in fact it is recommended not to vaccinate within 6 months of infection. If you are talking about innate immunity or cross-immunity from SARS-Cov-1 it's super rare and hasn't been shown to be relevant in most Western countries. To see the (reduced) benefit even with prior infection just look at the numerous r…

It's also riskier for most folks to drive a car than to catch Covid. I agree that people should look at their specific case and do honest risk/benefit analysis. Most of what I've seen, however, feels more like herd mentality behavior based on one's political leanings. Or people feeling they genuinely don't have a choice, given impending requirements and restrictions from their local governments and employers. Edit: n…

As a European I do not understand what vaccination has to do with political leaning. It's even stranger that in the US pro-life (abortion) seems to correlate with pro-choice (vaccines)?

I do understand however that society as a whole says "if you are not willing to take a negligible risk for us, we are not taking risks for you".

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#265
post #34
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

mRNA vaccines produce antibodies targeting just the spike protein( S protein). There are other proteins on the virus like the M protein. Antibodies produced during an infection may target other parts of the virus so you can’t compare the two.

Isn't it the spike protein that is usually different between these variants? In that case antibodies that target a different part should even be more effective.

Yes, but it also is the part that the virus uses to bind to and enter a cell. It can mutate to a certain extent, but there are limitations to how much can change about it without destroying its ability to actually infect individuals.

On the other hand, there is some concern around the phenomenon known as "original antigenic sin". Its unknown if it is or will ever be an issue with Covid, but it essentially means that for some viruses (such as the flu), your immune system imprints on a virus the first time it encounters it, and more heavily relies on immunity for that particular virus than new antibodies for variants of that virus later on. This leads to the body mounting a sub-optimal defence against new strains of the virus (which is in part why we have yearly flu vaccines that don't offer amazing protection). There is some concern that there is a possibility that over time covid will continue to mutate and those whose initial infection was natural won't have as protective immunity as those who were vaccinated first, precisely because the vaccine only targets the spike protein and not the entire virus:

"Still, Hensley isn’t worried about imprinting — or at least not among people who have been vaccinated with mRNA vaccines. The very strong immune response generated by the Moderna and the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccines should override any imprinting impacts as SARS-2 mutates, he said. Hensley worries, though, that people whose immunity to the virus comes from infection, not vaccination, might have more difficulty handling variant viruses because of imprinting effects.

David Topham, an immunologist at the University of Rochester Medical Center and director of the New York Influenza Center of Excellence, also envisages that possibility.

He noted that, in the earliest stages of SARS-2 infection, the immune system mounts a response to a portion of the spike protein called S2. Later, the immune system focuses its attention on other parts of the spike, notably the part of the protein that attaches the virus to cells it invades, known as the receptor binding domain.

It’s not yet known if the early focus on S2 — which doesn’t change much from virus to virus — will blind the immune system to the changes elsewhere in the spike protein, the changes updated vaccines would be trying to teach the immune system to respond to, Topham said.

Topham doesn’t think this will be a problem in vaccinated people, because of the way the vaccines in use have been designed. The spike proteins they trigger production of appear to hide the S2 region, he said. The immune system can’t fixate on something it doesn’t see.

For people whose immunity comes from infection, Topham sees three possible scenarios. “It can be a problem, because the immune cells specific for S2 outcompete immune cells against other components of the spike protein that you really need in order to get protection. It can be inconsequential in that eventually the responses to the other parts of the protein catch up and it doesn’t matter. Or it could actually be a benefit because it gets the immune system revved up more quickly.”[0]

[0] https://www.statnews.com/2021/04/16/next-generation-covid-19...

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you already have an appointment the only debate should be whether you will need an additional third booster shot in the future if the strain in India breaks out and is different enough. The key thing you should notice about the COVID vaccine detractors is their inability to distinguish between vaccines and the wildly different technology between the different vaccines, alongside their inability acknowledge the geo…

I live in Canada so it is age based. I'm guessing it will be either Pfizer or Moderna both of which are mRNA which from my understanding is a form of gene therapy. My main concern at the moment is: Just as the virus can mutate during it's replicatative phase and produce variants why can't the spiked protien during it's production or the cells producing it mutate also? If these production cells can mutate or the spike…

> why can't the spiked protien during it's production or the cells producing it mutate also?

So now you have a slightly different protein produced by one particular cell for about 20 minutes. Big deal.

The tumor cells in your body right now are already doing a lot worse.

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#267
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a massive reproducibility crisis in science, and the two points are not not unrelated.

The “reproducibility crisis” is largely overblown. Individual scientific papers have always been close to junk on average. Look at a wide swath of papers from say the 1950’s or even 1850’s and you see not just poor methods but also outright fraud.

It absolutely isn't overblown, and "individual scientific papers have always been close to junk on average" is a pretty damning indictment.

Meta-studies have found that, depending on the field, up to 70% of published papers can't be reproduced. I'm not sure its possible for considering that a crisis to ever be "overblown".

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#268
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yes, but no. while it’s technically the same protein, the way it was optimized differs (not by much but it’s different). the vaccine itself has the instructions to produce something that resembles the spike protein (to which your immune system goes in overdrive and generates antibodies)

> while it’s technically the same protein Not technically, it’s actually the same protein/polypeptide sequence in both cases, 100% identical, including the proline mutations that stabilize the prefusion conformation. You can check that easily by translating and aligning in silico both coding RNA sequences. > the way it was optimized differs (not by much but it’s different) I’m assuming that you’re referring to the co…

here. do the diff yourself:

https://github.com/NAalytics/Assemblies-of-putative-SARS-CoV...

I’m not gonna go into how the virus was sequenced or what the process to generate the vaccine was, but in this case, I believe your claim of being 100% identical is wrong.

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#269
post #165
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're past that now. It's known as Pfizer in the official language of too many cities and countries.

It is maybe for you but not everywhere, i can see it being referred to as Biontech just as often, if not oftener than Pfizer. Maybe because Germany is our neighboor, but maybe also because it is "more right"

Yeah, I was speaking more to California and the US

Re: Current RNA vaccines protect against worrying coronavirus variants

#270
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We're past that now. It's known as Pfizer in the official language of too many cities and countries.

No, we are not past that. Just because it is used wrongly it does not mean that it needs to stay that way.

Shit happens. Every tissue in the US is called kleenex even though that is a brand.

Lots of people call all kinds of skewers Doner Kebab even though that's incorrect.

It's speech and sometimes it doesn't fit our nice rules.

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