Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money? • Hacker News Board

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#351

Post by david_allison » Tue, May 11, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

dsr12 wrote: post #316

akmittal wrote: post #105

See what creator of Babel has to say >Babel used by millions, so why are we running out of money? Bluntly: Because funds were misallocated for years, and the project has been too slow to improve. >The reason there's no money is because someone took a $130k annual salary and didn't actually work on the project. https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1392019586833387522 - So donating money because of this post may not be a…

Creator of Vue.js Evan You's perspective: "Working on a project" doesn't only mean pushing commits. It also means deciding what to do, syncing with committees, running a team structure, thinking about how and where to get funding, and handling the mental pressure of "I'm responsible for this". https://twitter.com/youyuxi/status/1392088730438090756

Evan You[0] has over 4x more contributions than Henry Zhu[1] this year.

Evan's absolutely correct, there's a lot of 'invisible' community activity, but in my experience of OSS, it's typical to have a 'contribution' on GitHub every day, which is missing in the case of a Babel maintainer who's being paid $130k/y

Let's compare to the other maintainers: [2][3][4][5][6].

Contribution counts aren't and shouldn't be everything, but they speak on a macro-scale. It's not an unreasonable expectation to review a PR a day.

[0] https://github.com/yyx990803 (2,979 contributions)

[1] https://github.com/hzoo (771 contributions)

[2] https://github.com/existentialism (2,608 contributions)

[3] https://github.com/JLHwung (1,849 contributions)

[4] https://github.com/loganfsmyth (130 contributions)

[5] https://github.com/nicolo-ribaudo (2,329 contributions)

[6] https://github.com/xtuc (1,614 contributions)

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#352

Post by eplanit » Tue, May 11, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

akmittal wrote: post #105

See what creator of Babel has to say >Babel used by millions, so why are we running out of money? Bluntly: Because funds were misallocated for years, and the project has been too slow to improve. >The reason there's no money is because someone took a $130k annual salary and didn't actually work on the project. https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1392019586833387522 - So donating money because of this post may not be a…

Management blaming individuals by name (in public no less) shows severe incompetence at the top. I don't doubt he hired a slacker, but that's on management for hiring and retaining that... to the point of demise? Stupid.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#353

Post by nwsm » Tue, May 11, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

Here's [0] a blunt take on the situation by Sebastian McKenzie, who left Babel to start Rome Tools. He blames the full time salary of Henry, who he doesn't think contributed enough.

[0] https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1392019586833387522

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#354

Post by ta988 » Tue, May 11, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

bsder wrote: post #146

plasma wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But there is no way in the world I can stand in front of > company leadership and ask for money to spend on something > that I already get for free. I'd look out of touch with > the realities of running a business. The request would be > roundly shouted down. I agree, at minimum, the its free but seeking sponsorship model is making it hard. Looking at their Sponsorship options on GitHub [1] I see there's a useful p…

Yeah, that jump from $20/month to $500/month is too big. JetBrains asks for $500 per year--that's probably right about the discretionary spend of a decent engineer. $500/month means you're going to have to generate me an invoice and that invokes a whole bunch of corporate machinery that you don't want activated if you want a donation.

You can get free licences for Open Source projects from Jetbrains. Babel would likely be eligible.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#355

Post by [deleted] » Tue, May 11, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

[deleted]

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#356

Post by ZephyrBlu » Tue, May 11, 2021, 1:25 PM UTC

indemnity wrote: post #275

sofixa wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$90k/year is between a good and outrageously good salary for Europe, depending on the country. So yeah, plenty of talent available for cheaper than $90k/year.

I don’t understand why salaries are so low in Europe. I work in New Zealand, not exactly a tech hub, and I’m on $220k p.a. (mid career). $160k US, 130k EUR. 39% top tax. I wouldn’t say I am significantly above average and I’m not in management (architect/principal engineer). Similar story in Australia. Not quite US levels but decent compensation, I don’t feel taken advantage of.

I honestly didn't think there was that kind of money in NZ. What kind of company are you working for?

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#357

Post by ZephyrBlu » Tue, May 11, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

anon98356 wrote: post #288

indemnity wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t understand why salaries are so low in Europe. I work in New Zealand, not exactly a tech hub, and I’m on $220k p.a. (mid career). $160k US, 130k EUR. 39% top tax. I wouldn’t say I am significantly above average and I’m not in management (architect/principal engineer). Similar story in Australia. Not quite US levels but decent compensation, I don’t feel taken advantage of.

Does that figure take into account cost of living? When I left NZ 6 years ago it wasn't a cheap place to live.

220k is sweet as in NZ even if you're living in Wellington or Auckland.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#358

Post by drawfloat » Tue, May 11, 2021, 1:28 PM UTC

skerit wrote: post #336

sofixa wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$90k/year is between a good and outrageously good salary for Europe, depending on the country. So yeah, plenty of talent available for cheaper than $90k/year.

Is that before or after taxes? In Belgium, a self employed freelancer earning only 90.000 dollars a year (73.000 euros) is really not that much.

That's still far from "not that much". You're not gonna be buying a jet anytime soon, but it's far and above the 20-30k many developers outside of city centres get stuck on.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#359

Post by ZephyrBlu » Tue, May 11, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

uncomputation wrote: post #160

axguscbklp wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Babel is one of the most popular and widely-used tools in the history of web development. Why should its developers and maintainers not make at least as much money as entry-level Silicon Valley developers?

What entry level SV dev makes 11,000 x 12 = 132,000 x 1.25 (tax) = $165k/year pre-tax? I know the salaries here are high but let’s not get ahead of ourselves. If they are that high for entry level then I’m being seriously underpaid :/

I thought the 11k/mo was pre-tax but regardless, with stock they can be higher than $165k.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#360

Post by FiberBundle » Tue, May 11, 2021, 1:30 PM UTC

prepend wrote: post #327

FiberBundle wrote: post #300

This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken. Very competent people are expected to write widely used software for a salary that basically merely guarantees subsistence. It never ceases to amaze me how great software engineers allow themselves to be exploited in such a way. If you consider the societal impact that some of these projects have and the skill set that some…

> OSS model, unfortunately, is broken. I don’t think this is true. The mode works phenomenally well (eg, Apache, Linux, Postgres, etc). But it doesn’t work for all projects and isn’t the same as commercial software. If I create a project with the goal to make lots of money, then I probably won’t succeed. Conflating “doesn’t work for me” with “broken” is not using all the available evidence.

It shouldn't be about making lots of money, personally I find it great that most good software engineers aren't primarily driven by money, but that mindset shouldn't imply exploitation. It's just a fact that large corporations and companies in general benefit disproportionally from OSS. The value that open source software creates stands in no relation to the price that companies pay for it, even if the maintainers of some projects are perfectly happy with the compensation they receive. If you don't need a large part of the money that your work justifies, then just give it to charity, but don't allow companies to take it.