Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

babeljs.io

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

321–330 of 729 posts

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#321

Post by ZephyrBlu »

capableweb wrote: post #309
FiberBundle wrote: post #300

This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken. Very competent people are expected to write widely used software for a salary that basically merely guarantees subsistence. It never ceases to amaze me how great software engineers allow themselves to be exploited in such a way. If you consider the societal impact that some of these projects have and the skill set that some…

> This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken This blog post for me is evidence that we can make crowdfunded open source work, as long as the people receiving the money know how to effectively use it. The team handling the economy of Babel right now, does not, hence Babel is not sustainable. But, if you'd make the salaries a bit more realistic, Babel would have money o…

If the people who are working on these projects are talented and can command high salaries, $11k/mo is realistic. It's already a large pay cut.

> My expectation would be that there is a ton of people willing to work for much less, so why Babel had to go with that person?

Are all those people capable of managing Babel?

I think the real question is: do you need top talent for important open source projects, or are average developers fine?

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#322

Post by jiofih »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #57
jiofih wrote: post #13

If you want to make money and pay developers a salary, you need a product. I don’t want my js tooling to be a commercial product (hi Rome). Can we go back to the original spirit of OSS where everybody donates a little of their time instead?

The original spirit of open source software is free as in freedom, not free as in beer. People have to make a living. And who will manage that thing where everybody donates a little of their time? Babel has nearly 600 open issues and 150 outstanding pull requests; it's a full time job just to manage that.

Yes. Part of that freedom is being something owned by the community, not a particular commercial entity.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#323

Post by jiofih »

orangepanda wrote: post #47
jiofih wrote: post #13

If you want to make money and pay developers a salary, you need a product. I don’t want my js tooling to be a commercial product (hi Rome). Can we go back to the original spirit of OSS where everybody donates a little of their time instead?

> If you want to make money and pay developers a salary, you need a product. I don’t want my js tooling to be a commercial product You contradict yourself there. If no one wants to pay for said product, how would a product bring in more money? Tools is what makes us 10x more productive; its ridiculous companies cant spare 1% of their IT budgets to pay for them.

Not contradictory at all. I don’t think it should be a product and employ individual developers.

They spare their budget by having employees contribute to OSS on the clock.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#324

Post by corty »

ForHackernews wrote: post #301
FiberBundle wrote: post #300

This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken. Very competent people are expected to write widely used software for a salary that basically merely guarantees subsistence. It never ceases to amaze me how great software engineers allow themselves to be exploited in such a way. If you consider the societal impact that some of these projects have and the skill set that some…

Just license your software under the GPL, then corporations can't take and use it without contributing back. It's hard for me to feel sympathetic for people who deliberately sign up for a model that encourages free-riding and then complain about it.

So much this.

Earning money with "do whatever"-style licenses like BSD or MIT is bound to fail. Use GPL and sell commercial licenses on the side.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#325

Post by hnbad »

dash2 wrote: post #237
hnbad wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The economic system is literally part of the assumptions. The tragedy of the commons holds up under laissez-faire capitalism. It can be somewhat mitigated under other forms of capitalism but there are examples for commons that pre-date capitalism itself and also specifically enclosure (the formal privatization of common land), which itself pre-dates capitalism. I'm not sure why you think you need to defend the concep…

No, the logic of public goods does not require any assumption about the economic system. Any set of actors whose actions create a negative externality, and who cannot enforce agreements to cooperate (either through the courts or via repeated interactions) will overproduce the externality. So, you could say the assumptions include the legal system. There are numerous tragedies of the commons under socialist economic s…

I'm not sure who you think you're arguing with but so far most of your rebuttals attack points I never made.

I never said that humans aren't "self-interested" or that humans, in the abstract, can be described as acting optimally within given constraints.

I said that the constraints influence behavior (which you agree with) and I said that the current economic system results in a tragedy of commons (which you also agree with). I also said that it is also possible to avoid the tragedy of the commons (at least locally, for a given commons), which is demonstrated by successful commons existing and having existed under different constraints.

None of that seems to be anything you disagree with, yet here we are.

Note that both examples you've given — rentier capitalism in Berlin and New York, and (presumably) Soviet-style bureaucratic socialism — suffer massively from alienation, which demonstrably leads to inefficiency and disregard (e.g. littering). This is well-understood enough that creating a feeling of "ownership" or "autonomy" (without introducing monetary benefits or democratic sharing of actual control over the company) has become a management strategy to motivate employees under capitalism.

As a counter-example to Berlin under capitalism in Germany, consider affluent rural areas where you see barely any littering. These regions however also have a high rate of home ownership and parallel social support networks, which I assume is what you're gesturing at as "repeated interactions" (but in this case often spanning literally generations). But these systems are unstable under laissez-faire capitalism as they present an inefficient resource use in the greater economic system and will over time erode as residents move away for job opportunities and properties are sold off and reused for more space-efficient apartment buildings.

To summarize, I'm not saying a tragedy of the commons can not exist under other economic systems, I'm saying there are systems under which a given tragedy of the commons can be averted and that this is not the case for the current one.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#326

Post by 5560675260 »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #131
qPM9l3XJrF wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case the problem would actually be solved if the project was a bit more capitalist and charged money for usage, no? This isn't capitalism failing, it's Burning Man gift economy type stuff failing.

I never understand the reluctance to charge for software amongst this community. Especially when you consider projects like Babel are mostly being used in commercial environments. Why do people expect that their employer should get this stuff for free or that the developer should have to beg for a few crumbs at the end of the month.

For many OSS is a breath of fresh air. A project where you're in charge, free to set your own goals and deadlines. Free to tinker and experiment. Free to say "do it yourself" when someone gets a wrong idea and goes against your creative vision. Money create exactly the kind of obligations you're running away from. Even if it's not demanded, you're still feel pressure to provide support, make your code fit for some purpose. And for what? Some chump change?

> Why do people expect that their employer should get this stuff for free

Because it's offered for free.

> developer should have to beg for a few crumbs

They shouldn't. Developers unhappy with their financial situation should pick up some contractual work or offer their product as SaaS.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#327

Post by prepend »

FiberBundle wrote: post #300

This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken. Very competent people are expected to write widely used software for a salary that basically merely guarantees subsistence. It never ceases to amaze me how great software engineers allow themselves to be exploited in such a way. If you consider the societal impact that some of these projects have and the skill set that some…

> OSS model, unfortunately, is broken.

I don’t think this is true. The mode works phenomenally well (eg, Apache, Linux, Postgres, etc).

But it doesn’t work for all projects and isn’t the same as commercial software. If I create a project with the goal to make lots of money, then I probably won’t succeed.

Conflating “doesn’t work for me” with “broken” is not using all the available evidence.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#328

Post by capableweb »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #321
capableweb wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This whole thread is basically a testament as to why the OSS model, unfortunately, is broken This blog post for me is evidence that we can make crowdfunded open source work, as long as the people receiving the money know how to effectively use it. The team handling the economy of Babel right now, does not, hence Babel is not sustainable. But, if you'd make the salaries a bit more realistic, Babel would have money o…

If the people who are working on these projects are talented and can command high salaries, $11k/mo is realistic. It's already a large pay cut. > My expectation would be that there is a ton of people willing to work for much less, so why Babel had to go with that person? Are all those people capable of managing Babel? I think the real question is: do you need top talent for important open source projects, or are aver…

You somehow seem to think that amount someone earns is somehow related to how good they are.

> $11k/mo is realistic. It's already a large pay cut.

Yes, sure, in Silicon Valley anything is possible but for the 99% rest of the world, 11K USD per month is ridiculously high and even people with decades of experience won't collect that unless there is a specific situation. It's definitely not normal outside of Silicon Valley companies.

> Are all those people capable of managing Babel?

Yes, I know of at least 10 JS developers with decades of experience who could handle maintaining Babel if it was up to them, and they don't earn close to 11K USD per month today. I'm sure they'd be happy to work on Open Source and effectively earning more, but many be happy just working on Open Source full time.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#329

Post by jiofih »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #43
jiofih wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably they have jobs, that’s extra income.

Facebook and Twitter are implementing features that warn you when you're about to share an article sight unseen. HN should do the same if you're about to comment without having skimmed the article.

What part did I miss? The two developers making $2k were part time, only one went full time, and current all of them work part time for $6k/month.

Re: Babel is used by millions, so why are we running out of money?

#330

Post by smt88 »

asiachick wrote: post #249
akmittal wrote: post #105

See what creator of Babel has to say >Babel used by millions, so why are we running out of money? Bluntly: Because funds were misallocated for years, and the project has been too slow to improve. >The reason there's no money is because someone took a $130k annual salary and didn't actually work on the project. https://twitter.com/sebmck/status/1392019586833387522 - So donating money because of this post may not be a…

I think this is an important point. How do I know donating money will end up actually going to the project. For some reason I believe donating to The Blender Foundation actually pays for devs to work on blender (and I donate). I have a friend working on an open source project. I know he works full time on it. I donated because I knew he was working full time and because I like the project and want to see it succeed.…

In the US, any donation to a nonprofit can be earmarked by the donor for a particular purpose. They're legally bound to use your money only for that purpose.
Post reply on HN