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Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

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Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#431

Post by underdeserver »

onion2k wrote: post #412
comp_throw7 wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, FAANG compensation lets you trivially retire (or achieve financial independence) by ~40 (if you're single), and that's assuming you're budgeting for 200k/year with an extremely conservative withdrawal rate (3%). If you're willing to resettle somewhere cheaper and live a somewhat less extravagant lifestyle, you could do it by your early 30s no problem. And, again, this is if you're single, i.e. no second incom…

I imagine this is true in theory . The math checks out. But every FAANG company has been around for at least 15 years now and we don't hear many stories of their early hires retiring. Where does it break down in practise? Is it just too hard to give up the high paying role? Is it that retirees don't talk about it? Or is it that the theory is actually wrong for some reason, and working for $200k for 20 years doesn't a…

I do hear many stories. On Twitter, on FIRE forums, some from friends. It's just that the kind of person to do this doesn't tend to be very outspoken.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#432

Post by bawolff »

n42 wrote: post #249
jaaron wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just that. Google (and a few others) dealt with retention issues from startups and other companies in SV who's sole recruiting strategy was poach from Google, ie- use Google as a filter and let them do all the work finding great talent and then we'll just hire Googlers (or one of the other major SV tech companies). So retention is a significant factor for Google and other FAANG companies. They can simply pay…

you just described supply and demand. supply is limited, recruiters poach, demand increases, salaries increase.

Not really, the parent didn't say anything about overall supply, just that its cheaper to let someone else sort the diamonds from the dirt than do it yourself.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#433

Post by jasonkester »

missedthecue wrote: post #387
zmalski wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure where you are that fresh grads get compensated with $200k but please, as a fresh grad who spent 6 months job searching and just accepted a software engineering job for $50k, let me know.

It's refreshing to see someone pushing back on this narrative a little. FAANG employ a cumulative total of about 100,000 software engineers globally (can't find US-specific numbers). There are 4.4 million software engineers in the USA. I'm sure the graduate -> $200k move happens, but it's only an extremely small number in terms of the occupation as a whole. People on this forum seem to casually mention it as if it's…

What does pushing back gain you though?

How about we stipulate that you can convince Facebook to pay you $70k to work for them. But they’re also happy to pay you $300k, so if I were a fresh graduate I,would benefit from taking that on board and adjusting my goals and strategy accordingly.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#434

Post by Thorrez »

_qwfv wrote: post #385
tptacek wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When we talk about FAANG companies in this context, we do so with the subtext that there are so few companies that pay this way that they'd fit into a short acronym. The idea that the top of the market rate is the moral floor for compensation is hard to take seriously. Besides, people trade compensation for all sorts of things: working at a nonprofit, working in their rural hometown. Why shouldn't problem domain be o…

FAANG companies also underpay their workers. It can simultaneously be the case that they pay their workers best in class wages AND those wages are less than the workers deserve. Apple has immense cash reserves built from the labor of their employees. That is essentially the difference between what value those employees generated for Apple and what they were paid. More of it should go out to the employees, and we shou…

How much workers deserve is based on profitability of the company they work at? Do workers who are equally talented and hardworking but work for a failing company deserve less?

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#435

Post by gentleman11 »

JabavuAdams wrote: post #413
paulpauper wrote: post #100

being a game dev. seems like the worst tech job: few perks, minimal promotion opportunity, no ipo riches, no buyout riches, no lucrative stock options, high failure rate, low pay relative to revenues and exec pay, long hours, no credit, low salary cap, etc.

It's a lot of fun, and conditions across the industry vary a lot. I burnt out in the games industry (twice), but it was the most fun I've had at work. Intense. All-expense-paid trips to GDC / San-Francisco from Toronto, Canada were nice. Having people recognize my T-shirt and come up to me to tell me they loved our game ... superficial, but enjoyable. In your '20s you're basically doing what you'd be doing anyway (as…

As an intern at a startup I got an all expense trip to California and a higher salary than some of the mid level game dev positions I saw today. Game dev is a ripoff

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#436

Post by marcus_holmes »

onion2k wrote: post #412
comp_throw7 wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, FAANG compensation lets you trivially retire (or achieve financial independence) by ~40 (if you're single), and that's assuming you're budgeting for 200k/year with an extremely conservative withdrawal rate (3%). If you're willing to resettle somewhere cheaper and live a somewhat less extravagant lifestyle, you could do it by your early 30s no problem. And, again, this is if you're single, i.e. no second incom…

I imagine this is true in theory . The math checks out. But every FAANG company has been around for at least 15 years now and we don't hear many stories of their early hires retiring. Where does it break down in practise? Is it just too hard to give up the high paying role? Is it that retirees don't talk about it? Or is it that the theory is actually wrong for some reason, and working for $200k for 20 years doesn't a…

Divorces are ridiculously expensive. That was the major culprit for my generation. Only one peer of mine has actually retired before 50 (that I know of), and he stayed married. Everyone else ended up splitting up, which wiped all their savings. Or they went another path.

I followed the other path - total mental breakdown, severe depression followed by "non-retirement" - working freelance, as a co-founder and in interesting jobs while travelling. Turns out that being a well-paid employee for years and years isn't something I can actually do without getting depressed about it.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#437

Post by Mauricebranagh »

dreyfan wrote: post #340
cmrdporcupine wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is FAANG pays for "the best" not because they necessarily need them. But because it's better for them if nobody else has them.

Yep. How is a startup supposed to compete when today's economy has resulted in fresh grads commanding $200k total-comp? Of course the answer is "you raise money!" so you can pay them "market-rates" at which point you may as well say fuck it and just get a job too because now you've given up so much equity and have such an aggressive burn-rate you're pretty well screwed from day one.

Welcome to capitalism for some areas the rate for the job is $200.

Its not societies job to manipulate the job market so some ones hobby me to "startup" becomes viable.

Its the same with mc jobs as a tax payer I am happy to subsidise nurse, doctor training but not subsiding a MacDonald's franchisee's business

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#438

Post by nly »

_delirium wrote: post #60
Raed667 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm struggling with this, I can't find a formula to translate US salaries to European ones (UK, FR, DE, mainly). On the one hand in the US if you save a lot, you can retire early and move somewhere cheap. On the other hand in Europe a lot of things are covered for you without having to deduct them from the salary. If anyone has researched this subject I'd love some links.

It's pretty complicated in general. For example, if you have kids, the European advantage tends to be bigger than if you don't (depending on which country, this may include subsidized daycare, cheaper or free college tuition, cheaper or free healthcare, etc.). In my particular case, when moving from the UK to the US, my estimate is that the "headline" salary number for the US offer I got overstated my pay by about 30…

I don't see how taxes were lower in the UK to be honest.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#439

Post by Mauricebranagh »

wildfire wrote: post #405
paxys wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are adjusting too hard in the other direction. "Most" people at FAANG companies are absolutely not miserable. The typical engineer at Google/Facebook works 40 hours a week, gets a good salary and is content with their life.

> The typical engineer at Google/Facebook works 40 hours a > week, gets a good salary and is content with their life. Two of three things you've said here are true. 40 hours a week would guarantee you will not be effective.

Rubbish week on week no one can sustain more than the average work week.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#440

Post by dragonwriter »

darth_avocado wrote: post #356
dragonwriter wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not a lot of money if that's your household income and you have kids. Its about 50% above median family income in California for a family of four, and most of those families of four aren’t getting by with just a single worker. > That leaves you about 3000 for groceries, gas, medical expenses, school related expenses, recreation, clothing, and bunch of other expenses for say a family of 3-4. That's not a lot of…

>Its about 50% above median family income in California for a family of four You're missing a key point, that this thread is about game dev salaries and most of them tend to be in major cities (and require you to go in). Sure you can central California and work on a farm, but that's irrelevant. >Yeah, it is. I mean, its not “eat out every day” money, but its quite comfortable. It depends on where you are and for most…

> You’re missing a key point, that this thread is about game dev salaries and most of them tend to be in major cities

That’s where (to within viable commuting distance) the majority of the people in California live, so, no, that doesn’t make the statewide aggregates inapplicable comparators. More than 20 million of the just under 40 million state population lives in the 9-county Bay Area, LA County, or San Diego County, and that doesn't even cover all the major cities or the full reasonable commute distance from those it does.

> I used to work for Ubisoft in San Francisco and let me tell you there isn’t a single county within “reasonable” commute that is cheaper to live in.

Almost every other Bay Area has a substantially lower cost of living; within a 90-minute commute radius you can be in a place with literally half the cost of living (e.g., Vallejo.)

If you're living in a more expensive area, its because you prefer a more expensive area, not because its all there is within a reasonable commute radius.

> There’s no denying there’s people in California who make way less and live far from the big cities.

There’s plenty of people that make way less and live in the big cities (not just their commute radius); per capita annual income in SF is about 70K, median household income $112K. [0]

> But there’s a reason why the limit to be considered “low income” is $120000 in San Francisco for a family of 4 (and similar in other big cities where game studios have offices).

It’s actually $146,350 in SF. (Including Marin and San Mateo; the San Francisco HUD Metro FMR Area).

But just next door its $109,600 (Oakland-Fremont, CA HUD Metro FMR Area, which includes Alameda and Contra Costa Counties) Out to Solano County its $77,600.

In Sacramento County, where EA’s Capital Games studio is located, its $72,500. [1]

And, again, those are all household thresholds; supporting a family on a single earner’s pay has been a luxury for decades; that you can only just barely do it above the local “low income” threshold on the game dev salary you quote if you choose to live in literally the single most expensive place possible, despite other less-expensive places being close by, isn’t a sign that the pay in your field isn’t great.

[0] https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/sanfranciscocit...

[1] All low income threshold data from https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il.html

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