Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter • Hacker News Board

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#401

Post by asdff » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:12 AM UTC

bedhead wrote: post #258

julienb_sea wrote: post #179

This is ultimately a supply and demand issue. Google pays high salaries because they have to in order to hire the talent they want. Game devs apparently do not have to, because they are able to fill their roles for lower salaries. Don't pretend like all tech companies wouldn't love to lower dev salaries, they just can't because they wouldn't be able to hire. Game companies apparently have a meaningful differentiator,…

This is fairly normal for certain "glamour" industries. Back in the day when it was relevant, MTV was infamous for paying people almost nothing, for no other reason than they could because MTV had a coolness factor associated with it that people sought. Same is generally true for a lot of the entertainment industry.

The coolness glamour factor in the entertainment industry goes away when you've been a PA for 10 years. That being said, there are a lot of industries and fields where you spend like your entire 20s just treading water and suffering, and only after that when you emerge, bloodied and standing on the pile of your burned out former coworkers, do you get a crack at the lifestyle you envisioned that profession being like as a kid when you began the process of cementing yourself into this life.

As a kid I thought this included some obvious jobs, but now as an adult I realize a lot of professions are like this. Some of my doctor and lawyer friends have been dealt the worst hands of all.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#402

Post by ewmiller » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:17 AM UTC

jjeaff wrote: post #238

bko wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The whole "do it for the love of the craft not money" is bullshit propaganda Or you could just value things about work apart from salary. No need to shame people for going for not doing for the absolute highest paying job. You can try to do the best you can comp wise, but if you're only chasing money your whole life, it won't lead to much satisfaction and is generally bad advice

It's not nice to shame people, but it is helpful for the greater good of software developers if people would change their mind about being willing to work gruelling hours for lower pay. Because if there aren't enough developers willing to do it for low pay, the multi-billion dollar companies would have to pay more for game developers. This is why groups like actors needed a union. There is an endless supply of wide e…

That is an excellent example.

Given a situation where labor supply is in excess, one could say "let them work for pennies because they love the craft, i.e. let the company pay them nothing because they're easily replaceable." Or one could say "they should unionize so they can bargain for better salaries, and still do what they love."

I suspect that since game devs still make above the national average for salaries, there's less incentive to unionize and demand wages that actually reflect the value they bring to those multi-billion dollar game publishers. It's like "well 50k-60k is good enough" even though the industry they work for is flush with cash and could easily compensate more if they were made to do so.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#403

Post by comp_throw7 » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:19 AM UTC

wolfretcrap wrote: post #399

sanxiyn wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My theory is that while work is dull, people are not overqualified. They need smart people not because logic they write is complex, but because navigating total chaos of internal system complexity needs smartness. If they could refactor and get internal systems in order they could lower qualification bar, but that refactoring requires super duper overqualified people, etc.

My theory is FANGS pay more because it's a casino like setup. Yes, their employees are making lot of money but where her money ends up going? A large part of that ends up paying rent in a region where there are many others making similar wages like you, and trying to outcompete you out of the best property you can choose to live. Mostly people at headquarters or major offices get paid large salaries. Executives make…

I mean, FAANG compensation lets you trivially retire (or achieve financial independence) by ~40 (if you're single), and that's assuming you're budgeting for 200k/year with an extremely conservative withdrawal rate (3%). If you're willing to resettle somewhere cheaper and live a somewhat less extravagant lifestyle, you could do it by your early 30s no problem.

And, again, this is if you're single, i.e. no second income, paying a single-filer's tax rate, and no benefit of cheaper housing by having someone to split the expense with, etc. A partner earning any real amount of money speeds this up dramatically. (Kids do cost money, if you have them, but they don't cost enough money to offset having a second SWE income, even if you pay for extremely expensive daycare, unless you have like five.)

I don't know about you, but having "fuck you" money after a decade in the workforce, or "no, really, fuck you" money after 2 decades is a pretty good deal. It is, in fact, much easier to make this happen working at a FAANG (or comparable) than elsewhere. People like to complain about the cost of living, and yes, those complaints are valid, but working at a FAANG it's entirely possible to save more after taxes and expenses than software engineers in other parts of the country make _before_ taxes; trying to equivocate between those situations is really quite silly. The first is in a dramatically better financial position than the second.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#404

Post by 22c » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:20 AM UTC

davidgould wrote: post #388

golemotron wrote: post #361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just glamour. There's an argument that teacher salaries are low because people find it more rewarding than a lot of other work.

So by this theory people must really love janitorial and fast food work.

I don't think that commenter was saying that lower pay = more rewarding work, but that more rewarding work = satisfied with lower pay.

I know this certainly to be true for people I know who work in conservation.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#405

Post by wildfire » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:21 AM UTC

paxys wrote: post #267

glimshe wrote: post #241

I left the game industry for FAANG and I'm getting paid 2-3x more. I'm happy with this situation if I consider the big picture but, at least in my case, my game job was much, MUCH better than FAANG. No matter how many fancy drinks and energy bars FAANG gives me, if the pay in the game industry was higher I'd have stayed without a doubt. What this means is that FAANG is actually paying what it needs to pay to get empl…

You are adjusting too hard in the other direction. "Most" people at FAANG companies are absolutely not miserable. The typical engineer at Google/Facebook works 40 hours a week, gets a good salary and is content with their life.

> The typical engineer at Google/Facebook works 40 hours a > week, gets a good salary and is content with their life.

Two of three things you've said here are true.

40 hours a week would guarantee you will not be effective.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#406

Post by ewmiller » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:24 AM UTC

socialist_coder wrote: post #394

NamTaf wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As a salaried developer I don't think I was ever expected to work more than 60 hours a week, and then after the crunch was over we always got 1 or 2 weeks of extra vacation ("comp time"). To be clear, the normal working schedule was 40 hours per week. Crunch time is like 1 or 2 times a year, for maybe 1-2 months each time. And like I said, depending on how much you crunch, you would get extra paid time off afterwar…

We're not overseas though, we're in the US where we get 15-25 vacation days a year. So an extra 5-10 days each time you crunch is pretty significant. Also this is extra vacation. I get the equation is still in favor of the employer but whatever, I thought it was fair, because of my next point: I loved working on games! It wasn't bad at all doing this back in my 20s. You're doing something you love! With amazing peopl…

What if you could work on things you love AND be compensated more fairly for it, through something like... collective bargaining?

There are other creative careers, like acting, that have union representation for exactly this reason. If there were no actors' union, film companies could abuse an endless supply of wide-eyed hopefuls trying to get famous. Collective bargaining makes sure they can earn a real wage while they work on their dream career.

In any case, I'd expect someone named "socialist coder" to be less willing to hand over their power as a worker to their company ;)

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#407

Post by labcomputer » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:27 AM UTC

munk-a wrote: post #243

labcomputer wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> to the overhead of health insurance Not really. The ACA (Obamacare) caps overhead and profits at either 15% or 20% depending on market (google "medical loss ratio"). The dirty secret is that too many doctors go into medicine for the wrong reasons (making money, instead of helping people), and collude to limit the number of new doctors created each year. The AMA is by far the most effective union in the US.

The profits may be capped but US healthcare is still insanely expensive compared to other first world nations. Articles on the internet seem to say that the US was 4-5 times as expensive in 2019 - but more reliable research from 2010[1] puts that number closer to 2 times as expensive. The issue is that the US's broken healthcare system just costs a lot more per patient than anything else - and a lot of companies take…

> The profits may be capped but US healthcare is still insanely expensive compared to other first world nations.

Number 1: It's not the profits that are capped. Profits plus operating expenses are capped. Operating expenses (like paying folks in the call center to answer questions about coverage, adjudicating claims, etc.) come out of the insurance company's 15/20% (national/regional). If medical claims are less than 75/80% of premiums, the insurer is legally obligated to issue rebates. If the cost of administering the plan is more than 15/20%... too bad, so sad: the insurance company is legally obligated to loose money and (eventually, if they don't fix it) go bankrupt.

Number 2: I never said that it wasn't more expensive in the US. Just that health insurance companies are not the reason it is so (which was the reason you cited for the US's high healthcare costs). Mathematically, even if you assume it's entirely graft and profit (and it's not--processing claims is not free), the very best you can do is a 20% reduction in costs. What accounts for the rest?

Bear in mind that medical doctors in the USA earn as much as FAANG engineers. The average doctor salary across all specialties in the USA is $300k. Many earn 2x that. By way of comparison, it is unusual for a doctor in the UK to earn even as much as $200k, and the average is around $100k.

Unless the UK is somehow finding people who will pay money to the NHS in exchange for the honor of answering phones and administering claims, I find it difficult to believe that health insurers are anywhere close to the biggest driver of healthcare costs in the US.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#408

Post by jayd16 » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:31 AM UTC

luaKmua wrote: post #271

bilbo0s wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Underrated comment. It's even worse when you consider that the engines are generally already made, you only need developers to do what you could almost call glorified scripting compared to engine development. I think Unity and Unreal probably have to pay their devs a reasonable salary. But having devs work in Unity or Unreal to produce a game is not really all that hard. That's kind of the point of Unity and Unreal.

Having done work in a variety of contexts from Game Engine development to working in Unity, what you are describing is only true for the most trivial of projects. Larger projects (especially AAA) have so much customization of the engines and pushing of their boundaries that they require just as much technical expertise as engine development for many of the required tasks. There are advantages and disadvantages for us…

Agreed. I really doubt the parent comment has any idea what they're talking about.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#409

Post by tiew9Vii » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:32 AM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #80

SamuelAdams wrote: post #18

This isn't unique to game dev. This is true in education as well - most white collar positions pay between 40 - 100k while vice presidents and presidents get 250k + packages. I think more developers need to get better at negotiating. One 10 minute conversation can beat years of 2-4% raises. It's all about setting expectations and being willing to walk away.

You see this advice a lot, but it's never very specific. "Just negotiate better!" OK, great... how? Most of us have no leverage besides our willingness to walk away, and when the market is saturated with talent, it's usually fine for a company to just let you walk away. I bet for someone who happens to be the world's foremost expert in some niche skill the company needs, negotiating a higher comp is straightforward.…

I always see the advice never give your asking salary upfront.

Recently I want to move work and willing to take a pay cut just to move so gone in with the honest approach which I am told is bad for maximizing salary. Right now I'm not to fussed about maximizing, it's just moving.

The conversation normally goes:

Company: What is your current salary

Me: $XXX,XXX, that is negotiable as actively looking to move and will take less for the right company. *(I understand it's a high salary to the rest of the market where I am even though I am not in the US so salary is still well below US Junior FAANG)

Then it's been one of two things:

1) Get offered 30-40% less (20% less is my ballpark, 25% for a company that really interests me) 2) Bye

I've been told the job market is booming where I am but in 15 years it's the first time I've struggled to find a job although my skills are in demand overseas. I feel I'm fairly competent, I get told good things by people I work with and my salary has naturally grown through promotion based on my skills/performance yet I'm starting to question is it just me and I'm not that good why I am now struggling to find work despite going in to large orgs as a small dedicated team to do projects they couldn't deliver.

It seems if I take a big paycut to where I was 5-10 years ago, forget 15 years of career and revert back to writing NodeJS/Python apps my luck will be better.

Re: Game developers sharing their salaries on Twitter

#410

Post by comp_throw7 » Tue, May 11, 2021, 6:35 AM UTC

missedthecue wrote: post #387

zmalski wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure where you are that fresh grads get compensated with $200k but please, as a fresh grad who spent 6 months job searching and just accepted a software engineering job for $50k, let me know.

It's refreshing to see someone pushing back on this narrative a little. FAANG employ a cumulative total of about 100,000 software engineers globally (can't find US-specific numbers). There are 4.4 million software engineers in the USA. I'm sure the graduate -> $200k move happens, but it's only an extremely small number in terms of the occupation as a whole. People on this forum seem to casually mention it as if it's…

Google, Amazon, and Apple together almost certainly hit 100k by themselves. Facebook is a bit smaller than those 3 in terms of engineering headcount but not by much. Netflix is tiny, relatively speaking, I'll give you that.

But, I mean, new grads at MSFT can get pretty close to 200k, even though the comp scales up poorly with career progression compared to FAANG. There are a bunch of other companies where you can hit numbers that are in that ballpark, and they also employee a non-trivial number of engineers: Snapchat, Uber, Lyft, Twitter, Square, Stripe, Doordash, Roblox, etc, etc, etc. Sure, add them all up with FAANG and you probably barely touch 200k. But, uh, 200k is roughly 5% of the software engineers in the country (_very_ broadly classified; I think a more reasonable classification would put it closer to 10%). So, sure, it's not the _default_ outcome, but "top decile" is hardly shooting for the moon.