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Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

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Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#81

Post by chopsueyar »

rmc wrote: post #30
mseebach wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because in the US, they own the loops, in the UK they'd get access to them. I think a factor in making this easier in Europe is that all phone lines were put in by entirely government owned and operated enterprises, and it can't be argued that the public doesn't own them. In the US, if I'm not mistaken, most of the phone companies were and are at least somewhat private entities that invested private money in putting…

a factor in making this easier in Europe is that all phone lines were put in by entirely government owned and operated enterprises, and it can't be argued that the public doesn't own them Depends. When Ireland privatized it's state owned teleco, it included all the wires going all over the country.

All the citizens of Ireland voted to privatize the people owned telco and all its infrastructure?

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#82

Post by fourk »

tzs wrote: post #43

In the "Need to Know" version of this story they talked with a BT representative about how things had worked out for BT after they were forced into local loop unbundling. It worked out great for BT. They make more money leasing out the lines and leasing out space in their switching centers for the third party ISP's equipment than they were making providing monopoly ISP services directly. It truly is a case of everyon…

After looking at the options available that were linked in the article, I'm unsure that I agree that everyone wins. Specifically, consumers looking for the higher end of the spectrum.

At least, the only higher-end provider linked in the article, Demon [1], seems to offer abysmally low bandwidth caps on almost every plan, and generally low max download speeds (20Mb or less). How well are their bandwidth caps enforced? I ask because Comcast does not seem to enforce their bandwidth caps in San Francisco, at least for customers on their >$99/mo Home plans.

I realize that this is an extremely small sample size, how well does this trend describe other UK providers? Personally, given the option between any of the plans Demon has to offer, I'd still prefer my 50Mbps down/10 up Comcast line that has effectively no cap, for which I pay 100/mo. Is Demon the exception and not the rule when it comes to pricier third party providers in the UK?

[1]: http://www.demon.net/broadband

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#83

Post by chopsueyar »

russell wrote: post #58
logjam wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>... after creating monopolies in the first place If you are really trying to advance the theory that "the market", left to itself, won't generate monopoly after monopoly, perhaps you could point us to actual examples of those golden times when the absence of regulation served consumers more than they served business oligarchy.

Are you trying to say that unregulated monopolies like US Steel, Standard Oil, the railroads, AT&T, American Tobacco didnt have the best interests of the public in mind? After all Carnegie gave us lots of libraries and without Rockefeller we would not have had the Rockettes.

One man's robber baron is another man's philanthropist.

Did you ever use Windows Millennium Edition?

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#84

Post by hammock »

barrkel wrote: post #17
hammock wrote: post #8

It blows my mind that anyone in a startup community, which is all about creating value and making good investments, would suggest that the government tax him (!) and invest in broadband infrastructure instead of that person investing in it himself.

I've read your sentence perhaps 10 times and I can't figure out what it means in relation to the article. Are you saying telecom incumbents are startups? Does the "him" refer to telecom incumbents? Are you suggesting that the government is taxing startups that are trying to invest in telecoms? Or that the government is investing in telecoms (which is very much not what the article is about)?

I actually did read the article. I wrote that comment before there were any comments, in anticipation of comments in support of subsidized broadband. It was a risky venture, for sure. Heh

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#85

Post by bobo888 »

chopsueyar wrote: post #79
bobo888 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well this is how it happend in Romania: ----------------- 2000 - 2002 There was NO regulation. We just threw UTP cables from building to building, and bought external connectivity from bulk sellers. We didn't pay any taxes. We didn't have any signed agreements with "customers". We didn't have any permits from the city council either. There were no employees... heck, we weren't even registered as a business. We just t…

Awesome story. I like the idea of a city or neighborhood LAN with an internet gateway. This makes a lot of sense, especially when local online businesses want to serve their local community (like a local Groupon or live streaming of the neighborhood's Little League game from multiple cameras).

Well, back then we didn't see it as a business. Of course there were also people who knew what they were doing, but if I remember well, my network started with three teenagers wanting to play Quake and Need for Speed. Then more and more people joined... hundreds of them.

Internet access wasn't a priority (most users wanted it for IRC, and there were very few local websites/services anyway). As long as we could share movies and play games, everything was fine.

Today things changed. I think that most users want 100 mbps internet access instead of 10 mbps internet + 1000 mbps LAN. But I'm confident that, if the ISPs fail, people could build their own networks as long as the State doesn't interfere.

The problem with US seems to be that the Government is bullying (through all kinds of regulation) small ISPs in order to protect the big guys.

---------- EDIT: I have to admit that (in 2003 or so) it felt good when a big telco, with a budget of millions, could barely provide 128 kbps, while the small ISP which I joined was providing 512 kbps internet access + 100 mbps LAN. Today I'm a subscriber of that big telco, because they managed to pull their stuff together and now provide a really good service (at least in my area). But Gov regulation had noting to do with it. It was the competition: improve your service or die. Plain and simple.

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#86

Post by absconditus »

This does not seem like much of an explanation. CLECs have existed in the US for over a decade now. In Chicago many of us have about a dozen options. None of them are very competitive with EU providers when it comes to price. A few are probably comparable when it comes to speed.

I have noticed that even when there is competition most people will stick with Comcast or AT&T and bitch about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_local_exchange_carr...

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#87

Post by arethuza »

fourk wrote: post #82
tzs wrote: post #43

In the "Need to Know" version of this story they talked with a BT representative about how things had worked out for BT after they were forced into local loop unbundling. It worked out great for BT. They make more money leasing out the lines and leasing out space in their switching centers for the third party ISP's equipment than they were making providing monopoly ISP services directly. It truly is a case of everyon…

After looking at the options available that were linked in the article, I'm unsure that I agree that everyone wins. Specifically, consumers looking for the higher end of the spectrum. At least, the only higher-end provider linked in the article, Demon [1], seems to offer abysmally low bandwidth caps on almost every plan, and generally low max download speeds (20Mb or less). How well are their bandwidth caps enforced?…

BT Infinity (40Mbps down, 10 up) is £18 a month with a 40GB cap and £25.60 for unlimited.

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#88

Post by smutticus »

There is a direct correlation between competition and lower prices in this market. The US has little to no decent competition in many markets. Therefore ISPs rip people off.

If you think Western Europe has cheap broadband try going to small countries in Eastern Europe like Croatia, Slovenia, Latvia or Estonia. I've never seen cheaper BW in Europe than in Latvia.

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#89

Post by masklinn »

fourk wrote: post #82
tzs wrote: post #43

In the "Need to Know" version of this story they talked with a BT representative about how things had worked out for BT after they were forced into local loop unbundling. It worked out great for BT. They make more money leasing out the lines and leasing out space in their switching centers for the third party ISP's equipment than they were making providing monopoly ISP services directly. It truly is a case of everyon…

After looking at the options available that were linked in the article, I'm unsure that I agree that everyone wins. Specifically, consumers looking for the higher end of the spectrum. At least, the only higher-end provider linked in the article, Demon [1], seems to offer abysmally low bandwidth caps on almost every plan, and generally low max download speeds (20Mb or less). How well are their bandwidth caps enforced?…

> Demon [1], seems to offer abysmally low bandwidth caps on almost every plan

They're very low on "Home and home office" plans, low on "Business" plans (200GB from 19 quids) and unlimited in the premier section (30 quids).

> and generally low max download speeds (20Mb or less)

It's ADSL, ADSL2+ caps out at 24Mb/s.

Re: Why is European broadband faster and cheaper? Blame the government

#90

Post by masklinn »

seabee wrote: post #75
russell wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you trying to say that unregulated monopolies like US Steel, Standard Oil, the railroads, AT&T, American Tobacco didnt have the best interests of the public in mind? After all Carnegie gave us lots of libraries and without Rockefeller we would not have had the Rockettes.

If American Tobacco had the best interests of the public in mind, do you think they'd still exist in any form? Being philanthropic is not mutually exclusive with owning an amoral or even unethical business.

I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.
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