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The Time Everyone “Corrected” the World’s Smartest Woman (2015)

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Re: The Time Everyone “Corrected” the World’s Smartest Woman (2015)

#251
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The 1990 Parade Magazine description is almost identical (and actually more explicit, since "say #3" is a removable parenthetical): "the host, who knows what’s behind the doors, opens another door, say #3, which has a goat" -- https://web.archive.org/web/20130121183432/http://marilynvos... The host's knowledge is explicitly mentioned, and the only purpose this could have is that so he can use it to avoid giving the g…

It's a tv show - a valid purpose is that he needs to stretch by 30 seconds before going to commercial. Another purpose is that the audience thinks seeing a goat is funny. Another purpose is to prove the show uses two different goats and doesn't do a switcheroo behind the scenes. What the Parade article does NOT say is that the first door opened is ALWAYS not the contestant's choice and ALWAYS reveals a goat.

That he always opens a door that is not the contestant's choice is a necessary implication of saying that he opens "another" door. That he opens a door containing a goat is similarly implicated. It's not even an implication, really; it's just definitional in vernacular English. And in any event, any of the academics writing in would have been perfectly familiar with the semantic structure of such logic puzzles.

Also, most of the population of the country would have been familiar with the game show. Let's Make a Deal was one of the most popular programs on television. Even if they didn't particularly like it, people didn't have much of a TV program selection back then. And even if someone didn't regularly watch TV, it's likely they would have seen it and been familiar w/ the rules regardless simply because it was so widely watched around them. The vehemence of the respondents may even have been an effect of their familiarity, unable to recognize and accept that they'd missed a crucial analytical element after having watched the show so many times before.

What makes the puzzle counterintuitive, IMO, is that you're actually answering two different questions: the first before the host makes his selection, and the second (the only one that matters) after he makes his selection. Developing the habit of rigorously "updating your priors"--that is, recognizing when the available evidence has changed, requiring a reassessment--is an applied skill that even experts aren't particularly good at. (Nor was I the first time I read the problem.) The real-life narrative structure actually makes for a great logic puzzle as people are primed to miss the final constraint (his selection) for what it is. They're used to analyzing static situations, or a series of linked static situations--solve X correctly to solve Y. That makes the Monty Hall Problem peculiarly distinct from the typical type of logic puzzle that simply includes a misleading, irrelevant constraint or requires resolving a complex set of constraints.

Re: The Time Everyone “Corrected” the World’s Smartest Woman (2015)

#252
post #44

Another statistically unintuitive problem (which I've witnessed a lecture hall enter a state of uproar over): There are 2 red and 2 blue balls in a box. One ball is removed at random, what are the odds that the ball is blue? Now we repeat the problem, but before examining the ball, we remove a second ball. We observe that the second ball is blue. In this case, what are the odds that the first ball is blue?

Love it. The answer is 1/2. The first event occurs with a population of 2,2 and the second event has no causal effect. The trap is that the observation doesn’t change the sample population of the first event, exactly like the Monty Hall case: opening doors itself does not change the probability to 1/2 as people think it does (it remains 1/3) — it’s the switch that changes the odds.

Similar question with a similar trap: there are new neighbors moving in next door, and you know they have two kids. You see a boy in their yard, so you know they have at least one boy. What’s the probability they have two boys?

Re: The Time Everyone “Corrected” the World’s Smartest Woman (2015)

#253

This reminds me of the time my entire family screamed and shouted that I was wrong that buying two different lottery tickets slightly more than doubles the total (infinitesimal) odds of winning over just one. 1 in a zillion vs slightly greater than 2 in a zillion because eliminating one choice reduces the pool by one for the next choice.

There are still N possible outcomes, and you have 2 of them instead of 1. Your chance of winning is 2/N instead of 1/N and has exactly doubled.

And most lottery games allow numbers to be re-used, so you haven't "eliminated" anything. If you exhaustively bought all N number combinations, you have a 100% chance of winning, but you also have a decent chance to split the pot with someone else who also bought the winning numbers.

Next time your family screams and shouts at you that you're wrong, maybe you should actually listen to what they're saying?

Re: The Time Everyone “Corrected” the World’s Smartest Woman (2015)

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something tells me Erdős didn't resort immediately to personal insults when faced with the problem, though.

Something tells me Erdős wasn't immune to sexism and would've probably not been immune to being a bit sexist here too.

Something tells me he probably didn't care who was explaining it to him, as long as he understood.

Re: The Time Everyone “Corrected” the World’s Smartest Woman (2015)

#255
post #248

So this is at least in part about the "Monty Hall Problem" and why it's solution not intuitive. The article missed an important angle: when the host opens a door, he's giving you more information , which explains why it's better to switch. If you're the host, you need to know which door the car is behind to do your job 2/3 of the time, to avoid revealing it. It's this quality of unexpected information exchange that I…

The explanation that best helped me 'intuitively' understand things is to rephrase the game as being two separate games: choosing one of three doors, and after that having the option to go for a coin toss instead. Obviously you'd go for the coin toss. Now I understand that the reason why that worked for me is precisely because it becomes much more clear that it's really about new information, and what tripped me up w…

I still don't think I really "get" it, but this explanation makes the most sense to me. Thanks!

Like of course I would switch and go for the coin toss, but I don't know how to convert that certainty into actually probabilities, tho I'm sure that the odds of my choices are not 1/3 versus 1/2, because there's probably some interplay.

If I think about it more I start to get confused again, along the lines of: does the first choice even matter then? and what if I reverse my first and second choices (as in I pick 1, then switch to 3, but what if I picked 3 then switched to 1), how can I still have better odds by switching, since there's only 1 right answer? But sticking with the coin toss, I feel, "OK this makes sense."

Re: The Time Everyone “Corrected” the World’s Smartest Woman (2015)

#256
post #245
post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. Intention does matter. If the host chooses the goat by chance ( with the possibility to choose the car instead ) then my chances to win are 50% ( switching or not ). But we are talking about Monty Hall after all. So I could be wrong :P

Nope. If the host shows the goat _for any reason_, then the 2/3 chance that the doors you didn't choose contain the car now applies to the one unchosen door remaining -- and you should switch.

Staying is an equally good option as switching in this version if the host revealed a goat, since the host randomly revealing a goat now makes it more likely that your initial choice was correct.

P(initial choice is correct) = 1/3

P(host shows goat) = 2/3

P(host shows goat | initial choice is correct) = 1

and vice versa P(host shows goat | initial choice is wrong) = 1/2

Applying Bayes:

P(initial choice is correct | host shows goat) = P(host shows goat | initial choice is correct) * P(initial choice is correct) / P(host shows goat) = 1 * 1/3 / (2/3) = 1/2

So, initial choice now has 1/2 odds for being right. The host revealing a goat gave us information on whether he was playing the P=1/2 or the P=1 game.

Intuitively applying this with the 100 door version: the host getting lucky and revealing 98 goats in a row makes it fairly likely that the initial door was correct all along and they didn't get super lucky avoiding the car 98 times, as there's a good chance the contestant helped them by hiding the car.

Re: The Time Everyone “Corrected” the World’s Smartest Woman (2015)

#257

An intuitive way to think about the problem is from the perspective of the host. Sometimes the host has 2 goats he can pick from to show, and sometimes he only has 1 goat he can show. 66% of the time the contestant chose a goat, so the host has to reveal the only other goat 66% of the time. So switch.

The 2 goats didn't make sense to me but the host perspective does I think, like:

after player's first choice, there's two cases.

Either player picked the car, or they didn't.

If player picked the car, then host has two choices to pick from, if player didn't pick the car, the host has 1 choice to pick from. (At this point you can sort of imagine a binary tree with 3 leaves and 5 nodes)

So either player picked the car the first time with a 1/3 chance (so, less likely), or didn't (more likely).

So it's more likely for player to miss the first time (unless you're a precog psychic like me), which, "paradoxically (but not really)", by missing (by failing), player actually improves odds for second guess. So, on average the second guess is more likely to hit, because, on average, the first guess is more likely to miss.

Now finally it makes sense to me. Because it's more likely to miss on first guess, it's also more likely to hit on second guess, so it's more profitable to switch, on average.

Do I get it now? I think I do! Woot! :P :) xx

Re: The Time Everyone “Corrected” the World’s Smartest Woman (2015)

#258

The problem with the Monty Hall problem is that it's based on implicit rules. Every explanation I've ever hear never says that no matter what they will never remove the winning choice.

They show all the doors. Why would they ask you to switch doors, if they already shown you the car?? Think about it.

Re: The Time Everyone “Corrected” the World’s Smartest Woman (2015)

#259

I still don't get it. 1. Three doors. 2. Two doors have a goat, and one has a car. 3. The contestant has a 1/3 chance of winning the car? 4. The contestant loses. 5. New game, and odds? 6. There's a 50/50 chance of winning? (I'm assuming Monte Hall has no clue to where the car is. He is just opening doors.) 7. Could someone explain it to me, and thanks in advance. (Off topic but a fawn had two babes in my back yard.…

You’re ignoring the fact that you already have information when it switches to two doors.

Re: The Time Everyone “Corrected” the World’s Smartest Woman (2015)

#260
post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The explanation that best helped me 'intuitively' understand things is to rephrase the game as being two separate games: choosing one of three doors, and after that having the option to go for a coin toss instead. Obviously you'd go for the coin toss. Now I understand that the reason why that worked for me is precisely because it becomes much more clear that it's really about new information, and what tripped me up w…

I still don't think I really "get" it, but this explanation makes the most sense to me. Thanks! Like of course I would switch and go for the coin toss, but I don't know how to convert that certainty into actually probabilities, tho I'm sure that the odds of my choices are not 1/3 versus 1/2, because there's probably some interplay. If I think about it more I start to get confused again, along the lines of: does the f…

the first choice matters insofar that you can choose to stick with it, so while the coin toss in isolation is 50/50, for the game as a whole you need to consider the option of sticking with that initial 1 in 3 chance along side the 1 in 2 chance.
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