Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Chevy Volt: Is This Our Future?

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

61–70 of 92 posts

Re: Chevy Volt: Is This Our Future?

#61

Post by yardie »

tectonic wrote: post #25

What's the environmental impact of making the batteries?

The polymer in a li-poly battery is ethylene glycol. It's relatively stable, relatively non-toxic (don't drink it, its can kill you but not the way hydrochloric acid will). Its almost the same stuff used as coolant in ICEs. Unlike NiCad and NiMH its probably the most environmentally friendly battery around. The other anode and cathode is lithium and lithium-manganese. These aren't rare metals (which I find ridiculous when people think they are made of exotic materials) but manufacturing is high because of the cost of research and the quantities produced.

As far as recycling is concerned, over time the electrolytes breakdown and need to be replaced. So you delaminate it and attach the anode and cathode to a new PEG laminate. That is basically how a li-poly battery is recycled.

Re: Chevy Volt: Is This Our Future?

#62

Post by JulianMorrison »

bbg wrote: post #19

I want to love electric cars, but I see two big issues: (1) if they go mass market, all that electricity will still have to be generated somewhere. Coal? Nuclear? (2) The batteries need rare-earth minerals, which are brought to market through environmentally-degrading open pit mining. Furthermore, at this point, most rare-earths are available almost exclusively from China.

The good thing about electricity is that it's fungible. You can convert everybody's electric car from coal to nuclear to solar without having to actually go and make alterations to every car.

Re: Chevy Volt: Is This Our Future?

#63

Post by rubinelli »

oldstrangers wrote: post #32
dstein wrote: post #26

I've always thought the Volt sounded way over-engineered. Why bother with a fancy hybrid engine rather than concentrating on making a lightweight, affordable all-electric car? The simple approach is always going to win. Zenncars.com was taking this approach but I'm not sure of their progress.

That's exactly the concept behind the Nissan Leaf, which they discussed in the article. For me, the Leaf isn't the answer. I drive from Houston to Austin regularly. It's a 200 or so mile drive. The Leaf gets 70 miles to a charge. What good does that do me? I would barely make it out of Houston before having to recharge for hours. Ultimately, Hybrids like the Volt are the best answer for the moment. They provide a pra…

Depending on how frequently you travel, renting a car may be much cheaper than the difference in depreciation between a Prius and a LEAF. And an all-electric makes even more sense as the family's second car.

Re: Chevy Volt: Is This Our Future?

#64

Post by demallien »

daimyoyo wrote: post #12

I've said before and I'll say again: Electric cars will not gain widespread acceptance until you can travel the equivalent of a tank of gas on one charge. Tesla motors is close, but you need at least 300 and closer to 400 miles per charge.

I think you might be right when you're talking about a household's first car. We want to be able to take the car on long weekend drives or holidays. But many households have two or more cars, and considering that the typical daily usecase is more like a 40km round trip, current electric cars are more than capable of meeting this need. Households simply use the fuel-based car for longer trips, and the electric car is used for in-city usage.

In 20 years time we could hope that the battery problem will be sufficiently solved that we can start getting 500km trips out of a charge, and then even the first car of a household could be electric.

Re: Chevy Volt: Is This Our Future?

#65

Post by furyg3 »

ugh wrote: post #34
sliverstorm wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's two sides to the argument. On the one hand, centralizing is big. It allows huge gains in efficiency- steam plants fueled by coal are 99% efficient, and by the time the power reaches the wheels of your car you're still probably around 60-80% (Otto cycle is 25% at absolute best , not counting drivetrain losses) It allows flexibility in source- nuclear, coal, wind, solar- and the source can be 'hot-swapped'. At…

It’s a good idea to say that but many people will then immediately go to the next extreme: electric cars cannot possibly be useful at all unless all our energy production is already carbon neutral†. The right way to approach this is to offer a detailed explanation, not to only say that electric cars burn coal. It’s a true statement, but it leads to misconceptions. I will say what I always say at this point: electric…

A gas powered car will burn gas now and in twenty years. lectric car burns (mostly) coal now but it doesn’t have to in twenty years. That’s what electric cars are all about.

This is really the key point. Right now, if all cars were electric, in Netherlands you would be driving on natural gas, in Austria renewable energy, and in Spain Nuclear energy (http://bit.ly/m25JwE).

Each country / region has good reasons for basing their current energy supply on a particular resource, and they can adapt over time as new options become available, old ones less attractive, market incentives change, or democracy pushes for something new.

Re: Chevy Volt: Is This Our Future?

#66

Post by [deleted] »

nhebb wrote: post #40

The $7500 tax credit is getting gamed by some dealers who resell the car to other dealers and take the credit for themselves. I don't know how widespread this is, but it's the kind of thing that makes my blood boil: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43243050/ns/business-autos/t/som...

[deleted]

Re: Chevy Volt: Is This Our Future?

#67

Post by Derbasti »

Can someone explain to me, why, exactly, this should be better than a hybrid design?

A hybrid design can use a comparatively tiny combustion engine together with an electric motor, which saves fuel consumption and does not need to be plugged in ever.

The Volt needs both a full-fledged combustion engine and a full-fledged electric engine and needs to be plugged in after each drive. That sounds basically like combining the disadvantages of electric motors and combustion engines in one car. Why would anyone want that? (And electricity is not exactly free, either)

Re: Chevy Volt: Is This Our Future?

#68

Post by Derbasti »

eftpotrm wrote: post #59
noonespecial wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a punt for the future. I'd hope that in 8 years a replacement battery has twice the capacity at a quarter the cost. If it doesn't and nothing better has emerged, the electric car is probably screwed as a concept anyway. I'd then hope there's more oil than we think.

I'd hope so to, but battery tech hasn't exactly got a stellar record of improvement, likely because of fundamental chemistry constraints. While I hate to be the depressive and I'd love there to be a better technology available, my understanding is that the resource requirements for battery production and disposal are sufficiently high that the whole life energy costs of such vehicles aren't actually very impressive c…

I would say that battery tech has improved enormously in the last few years. Look at the battery life of current laptops and mobile phones and compare that to a few years ago. In part, this is due to decreased energy consumption of the electronics, but in no small part this should be credited to improved batteries, too.

Re: Chevy Volt: Is This Our Future?

#69

Post by khafra »

georgieporgie wrote: post #44
masklinn wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 30mpg highway is really good Depends on the car you drive. 30mpg is really good for a gaz-guzzler, but mid-range sedans can easily be driven into the 40s.

mid-range sedans can easily be driven into the 40s. Really? Here are some numbers from Kiplinger's "best midsize sedan" list from 2009: * Sonata 32mpg highway. * Mazda 6 30mpg highway. * Chevy Malibu 33mpg highway. * Nissan Altima 31mpg highway. http://www.kiplinger.com/columns/car/archive/2008/car1207.ht... Cars.com mentions the best in each class for 2011, and it's the Nissan Versa and Sentra, each at 34mpg for the…

Daimyoyo was talking about actual mileage, not EPA mileage. Simply by holding 60mph or below, you can easily get 10-20% above the EPA highway rating; 15-30% if there's a lot of traffic around you going the same speed.

Re: Chevy Volt: Is This Our Future?

#70

Post by billybob »

daimyoyo wrote: post #12

I've said before and I'll say again: Electric cars will not gain widespread acceptance until you can travel the equivalent of a tank of gas on one charge. Tesla motors is close, but you need at least 300 and closer to 400 miles per charge.

My wife and I each have a car. I'd be happy driving a short-range electric car for my commute as long as our other car can be used for long trips. I bet a lot of people are in the same situation.

Obviously that leaves a lot of gasoline cars on the road, but it's a start.

Post reply on HN