Evidence from leaked account data on how elites use offshore banking [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Evidence from leaked account data on how elites use offshore banking [pdf]

#121

Post by syops » Sat, May 08, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

macinjosh wrote: post #66

guerrilla wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't seem to make much sense: You're against a policy because someone lied and didn't implement it when they said they would? You can be for taxing the rich and against people who do otherwise simultaneously.

I think the point is that beyond total and complete global totalitarianism there isn't a great way for any government to truly tax the rich to the extent desired because there were always be another safe haven for it overseas.

Can't you make it expensive to move money overseas by taxing such moves?

Re: Evidence from leaked account data on how elites use offshore banking [pdf]

#122

Post by Trias11 » Sat, May 08, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

okasaki wrote: post #50

Trias11 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of chasing the person with $1Bn, wouldn't it be more productive to learn from that person and educate others how to earn good money and live a good, productive lifestyle? Otherwise many are under the impression that looting and robbing is a way to go.

Educate them on what? How to be on top of a pyramid scheme?

>> Educate them on what?

"...educate others how to earn good money and live a good, productive lifestyle".

You may add to that many other educational resources and lots of them are free. People who are willing to learn will learn.

People who are unwilling to learn and prefer to rob and loot - will continue doing so.

Re: Evidence from leaked account data on how elites use offshore banking [pdf]

#123

Post by insert_coin » Sat, May 08, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

estaseuropano wrote: post #43

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #38

That's why i'm against high taxes. We get a bunch of random political parties, promising to "tax the rich" and stuff, we get new laws... and what happens? - The poor already pay very little tax - no change there - The rich avoid the tax by doing shady stuff (who remembers the panama papers.. or this.. or many other stories like these) - I, the middle class engineer get fucked by the taxes, and I get fucked hard, and…

That's not a result of high taxes but of either badly designed/balanced taxes or of lack of enforcement.

Which high taxes are part of.

Raising taxes is an admission that current tax policy, and the other side of the coin, the government spending policy, are awfully designed.

Of course there has never been a competent design since taxes always need to be higher to "reduce" the ever increasing wealth gap higher taxes were supposed to be tackling in the first place.

Just for once we could try something different maybe?

Re: Evidence from leaked account data on how elites use offshore banking [pdf]

#124

Post by turbinerneiter » Sat, May 08, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

Trias11 wrote: post #116

turbinerneiter wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because poor people don't have time to learn, they have to struggle staying alive. And very often the billionaires business's model is based on poor people making bad financial decisions, like pay day loans or buying products they don't need but are told that they do by the billionaires ad agency. Also, if the billionaires give a tiny amount of their money to fund schools, people will get educated, earn more money an…

Government has all the tools to make it worthwhile for billionaires to keep money within the economy. And governments of course has a ways to convince them that doing that is not wise. High taxes is the easiest way to deplete economy from productive individuals and their resources.

Taxes are paid on profits, investing reduces your profits, so if they want to invest, they don't have to pay taxes.

Taxes literally are used as a tool to incentivize investing in the economy.

Re: Evidence from leaked account data on how elites use offshore banking [pdf]

#125

Post by rhacker » Sat, May 08, 2021, 9:29 PM UTC

lend000 wrote: post #75

gzer0 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you are making more than $400,000, the new tax proposals would not affect you. What is your definition of "middle class"? Someone making $400k is most certainly in the top 1%. What tax changes have occurred so far in the past few decades that are significantly affecting you? I would genuinely like to know

The fact that there are people making 10,000 times as much as the highest bracket in a single year suggests whoever is proposing these tax laws does not actually want to solve the problem. There should be brackets going up to a billion dollars, adjusted every time someone makes an order of magnitude more than the highest bracket. Also, making 400K does not make you rich. In California, you are actually bringing home…

Are you serious? 400K definitely makes you rich. As if you do that for 10 years you have 4M dollars, 20 years? $8M I get that COL lowers that, but if you are making 400K you're not renting.

Re: Evidence from leaked account data on how elites use offshore banking [pdf]

#126

Post by throwaway_kufu » Sat, May 08, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

Trias11 wrote: post #14

DSingularity wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come on. The ultra-rich don’t pay their fair share. You know this and everyone knows this. Wealth inequality is obscene. Full stop.

Could you define "fair share" please in a way that everyone is agree with?

The top .1% own as much wealth as the bottom 90%.

For better or worse the only way that type of inequality happens is as a direct result of the policies of the country they live in, thus they should be grateful and thankful for living in a country that not only allows but promotes that type of concentration of wealth.

In exchange for the benefit of living in such a country that promotes such wealth inequality, they should pay a 90% tax rate to reflect the wealth inequality itself. They will bitch and moan of course, but they will still be far richer and better off than everyone else, and everyone else will be better off not living in a country with such high inequality and a country with tremendous national resources, as opposed to a country that is $28T in debt further decreasing the quality of life of those without the personal wealth to not need public services.

Re: Evidence from leaked account data on how elites use offshore banking [pdf]

#127

Post by fighterpilot » Sat, May 08, 2021, 9:30 PM UTC

modo_mario wrote: post #90

fighterpilot wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The top 1% pay 6x more tax than the bottom 50%! It's obscene how much they pay and how a small group of individuals is forced to carry the entire country. Much, much more should be expected from the bottom 50%.

>The top 1% pay 6x more tax than the bottom 50%! And yet their share of wealth keeps on growing and growing for decades. Curious.

Primarily because their unique value add to society has been growing (due to technology), and the unique value add of the bottom 50 percent has been decreasing (due to technology and globalization).

Take JK Rowling as an example. Her work added significant value to the lives of hundreds of millions, and she got a slice of all that value creation (say, 30 percent of it). Nobody is worse off. Everyone is better off. Her value proposition was magnified by the scale afforded to her by modern day distribution and movie deals, which is why she got so fabulously wealthy compared to what an author could've achieved (relative to their surrounding population) 100 years ago.

The poorest people inside developed countries on the other hand have had a decreasing value add to society. This is partly because of automation and partly because of globalization and the fact they now have to compete with 1 billion Chinese who work harder than them and for less.

Re: Evidence from leaked account data on how elites use offshore banking [pdf]

#128

Post by offsthroway » Sat, May 08, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

Throwaway for obvious reasons

Since the world is lacking in the department of opinion of wealthy men, let me add something to this discussion:

I'm currently in the situation of becoming rich (from a global standpoint, unicorn early employees would laugh at my near future net worth) due to selling my company. I'm having conversations with both tax lawyers and private bankers who are interested in helping me manage my future money. It's very clear for both sides that:

a) I never want not to be rich again

b) Paying less taxes is better than paying more taxes

Even so, all the professionals I talked to were very straightforward with saying that trying to avoid taxes would bring more headaches than it was worth it. Deferring taxes is considered kosher even for tax authorities as long as I declare everything I have correctly and it wouldn't be that bad after the first uh, let's say bite after the liquidation event.

Still, they insisted that an offshore structure would be useful to me for the rest of my life. I'm not American, I'm a citizen of a developing country that isn't a total mess, but it's... developing. And let's leave it at that. A few cases that convinced me:

1) Tax officers have no downside to suing even completely transparent transactions. It's completely possible to get a tax bill with a heavy fine on top years after the fact because suddenly someone thought something was off. One of the tax lawyers I talked to mentioned* how he nullified a ~hundreds of millions fine/reassessment, but only after a long (+expensive) legal battle and a lot of stress for the sellers. Totally unfounded, and he mentioned it happened more than once.

2) I almost* lost my exit because the government bureaucracy was not working due to covid and the buyer had a hard deadline for Q1. Said bureaucratic procedure would be a single docusign in a business-friendly jurisdiction (aka tax heaven)

3) American private bankers find it a hassle to deal with developing country clients directly, handling their money through offshore accounts (as a business client, that is, the shell corp is the private banking client) is a lot easier.

4) This is not a case, but: I don't love paying taxes, but I understand that I live in a poor country and of course taking a tax dollar from me is a lot fairer than taking a tax dollar from my poor neighbor. Still, it is not beyond the realm of possibility that my government, or at least a few unsavory parties that could be in charge one day, decides that it wants to set a high wealth tax or outright confiscate investments and I don't plan on making that easy (see point a above).

So, there's that. No need to feel sympathies for the (future) millionaire here, just want to share that avoiding taxes is not my primary concern, and could not be for others, too.

* Yes, this is a joke * Later I confirmed with said client, he was still angry at it

Re: Evidence from leaked account data on how elites use offshore banking [pdf]

#129

Post by closeparen » Sat, May 08, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

gzer0 wrote: post #58

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #38

That's why i'm against high taxes. We get a bunch of random political parties, promising to "tax the rich" and stuff, we get new laws... and what happens? - The poor already pay very little tax - no change there - The rich avoid the tax by doing shady stuff (who remembers the panama papers.. or this.. or many other stories like these) - I, the middle class engineer get fucked by the taxes, and I get fucked hard, and…

Unless you are making more than $400,000, the new tax proposals would not affect you. What is your definition of "middle class"? Someone making $400k is most certainly in the top 1%. What tax changes have occurred so far in the past few decades that are significantly affecting you? I would genuinely like to know

Owns a reasonable home in a decent school district with a commute around 30 minutes. Eats out a few times a month. Takes 1-2 vacations a year. If upper middle class, savings adequate to gradually upgrade housing, send kids to University of State, etc. If regular middle class, home will be maintained against entropy and kids will take out student loans. Either way, will retire at the usual time.

In some places $400k can give 8 families this life. In others not even one. It depends.

Re: Evidence from leaked account data on how elites use offshore banking [pdf]

#130

Post by hnitbanalns » Sat, May 08, 2021, 9:31 PM UTC

codeecan wrote: post #94

gzer0 wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you are making more than $400,000, the new tax proposals would not affect you. What is your definition of "middle class"? Someone making $400k is most certainly in the top 1%. What tax changes have occurred so far in the past few decades that are significantly affecting you? I would genuinely like to know

This is the best lie ever told, "don't worry, these taxes wont affect YOU!". Every new tax inevitably falls onto the middle class, because they can't hire people to restructure their wealth and the poor pay no taxes. Lower taxes makes it less expensive for the rich to pay the government. Look at housing and food costs to see how the middle class are affected, they don't get welfare, social housing, or food stamps.

Nailed it.