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Decentralized trust graph for online value exchange without a blockchain (2017)

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Re: Decentralized trust graph for online value exchange without a blockchain (2017)

#31
post #20
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea of money as credit is very interesting (look at my HN comment history for my ramblings on the topic!). > I think the system described is interesting, but for regular human commerce purposes, I think the downsides of it (managing IOUs from many different parties, needing to have a trust-path between users that could steal from you, needing to keep a node online always or trust your money to someone el…

>1. Market makers who buy IOUs at a discount and swap them for _their_ IOU which can be more trusted. Doesn't this go against decentralization? Why would anyone want rojeee IOUs when they can instead trade US federal government IOUs (aka. US dollars)? What's the advantage in managing IOUs from a bunch of different entities and having to pay market makers every time you transact? >These parties could be fully automate…

Dollars aren't an IOU. Their advantage is all creditors and the government itself is required to accept it as payment, and practically speaking, all businesses will also accept it even though they aren't legally required to. But owning them doesn't mean the government owes you anything.

The advantage of an actual IOU is revenue and expense streams, even when they are very predictable, may not happen on the same schedule, or one is seasonal but the other is not. So allowing the buyer of a good or service to pay with money they don't yet have (and allowing the receiver to count that as revenue according to accrual GAAP) is critical to how businesses function.

Not forcing them to trust each other is the only thing that makes this possible, and that happens via banks and other market makers. This arguably even requires some level of centralization because many factors make this easy for a bank but pretty difficult if not impossible for some arbitrary third party, i.e. banks are extremely well capitalized, heavily regulated and audited, might have multi-century histories of reliably making good on their guarantees, have extremely specialized departments dedicated to assessing default risk. Paying for this reliability and trustworthiness has been deemed a worthwhile cost of business for effectively as long as businesses have existed.

Making this actually free would be nice, but I don't see how it's possible. Settle doesn't seem to solve that from reading this. It just trades explicit cost for risk, which you can already do if you prefer risk. Cryptocurrencies don't solve it either. Something like lightning is fine for microtransactions, but anything large enough that you would otherwise involve a bank or escrow agency can only be handled by the blockchain itself with its massive transaction costs, which happen to be presently masked from buyers and sellers due to the ability of miners to get rich off of speculative frenzy, but when that stops being the case, suddenly you're going to need to pay explicitly to move large amounts of value, more than you would have been paying a bank.

Re: Decentralized trust graph for online value exchange without a blockchain (2017)

#32
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quoted paragraph also caught me up upon first read. After I thought about it I do agree that there is some level of trust in the protocol itself and actions of other actors using that protocol can influence that trust. But I suppose that the trust needs to be applied at some level. Trusting end-to-end encryption is a real trust. If someone comes along and finds a way to factor large prime integers the system wou…

Didn't Ethereum very early on push an update that undid a $50 million hack?

Yep, the "trustless for thee but none for thanks" model.

On the plus side the DAO hackers are doing very well for themselves economically, the old chain, Ethereum Classic, is having a moment [1].

[1] https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ethereum-classic/

Re: Decentralized trust graph for online value exchange without a blockchain (2017)

#33
post #16

Read early versions of the Ripple white paper, before they decided to make XRP a store of value. The compulsion to cash in on a settlement layer by establishing your own scarce medium of exchange is too great.

Ripple didn't exist when XRP was created. ripplepay now rumplepay.com was probably what you meant.

Re: Decentralized trust graph for online value exchange without a blockchain (2017)

#34
post #8
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the idea of money as credit is very interesting (look at my HN comment history for my ramblings on the topic!). > I think the system described is interesting, but for regular human commerce purposes, I think the downsides of it (managing IOUs from many different parties, needing to have a trust-path between users that could steal from you, needing to keep a node online always or trust your money to someone el…

> I don't like crypto because there's essentially zero accountability for issuers and that kind of environment is optimal for scammers. Please expand on this as I'm almost certain this doesn't apply to BTC, ETH, and other reputable chains.

Uhh... if you define reputable by market cap and purported volume then... [1]

[1] https://ag.ny.gov/sites/default/files/2021.02.17_-_settlemen...

Re: Decentralized trust graph for online value exchange without a blockchain (2017)

#35
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That quoted paragraph also caught me up upon first read. After I thought about it I do agree that there is some level of trust in the protocol itself and actions of other actors using that protocol can influence that trust. But I suppose that the trust needs to be applied at some level. Trusting end-to-end encryption is a real trust. If someone comes along and finds a way to factor large prime integers the system wou…

Didn't Ethereum very early on push an update that undid a $50 million hack?

Yeah, they figured at that early point in the chain's life, having one hacker control so much of all ETH in existence was worth saving it.

It was a hard coded contract change to fix the exploit. No rollbacks though, the funds that were already stolen, stayed stolen. They had to be 'stolen' back, recovered, using the same hack the hacker was using.

Re: Decentralized trust graph for online value exchange without a blockchain (2017)

#36
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

github repo points to it. and the archive.org page footer points to the repo.

Where? I see a link to https://settle.network which isn't the same as https://settlenetwork.com

Did you click that link? It ends up in settlenetwork.com.

Re: Decentralized trust graph for online value exchange without a blockchain (2017)

#37
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where? I see a link to https://settle.network which isn't the same as https://settlenetwork.com

Did you click that link? It ends up in settlenetwork.com.

Ah, okay. My guess is he probably let "settle.network" expire, and the owners of the unrelated "settlenetwork.com" bought the domain and redirected it for anti-brand confusion, SEO or latent traffic reasons. I don't see anything technically related across them. The original settle.network was "without a blockchain", settlenetwork.com is very much "with a blockchain".

Edit: The "settle.network" domain as it sits now was first registered in 2019, well after the last activity on the github repo. So yeah, he let the domain lapse out.

Re: Decentralized trust graph for online value exchange without a blockchain (2017)

#38
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you click that link? It ends up in settlenetwork.com.

Ah, okay. My guess is he probably let "settle.network" expire, and the owners of the unrelated "settlenetwork.com" bought the domain and redirected it for anti-brand confusion, SEO or latent traffic reasons. I don't see anything technically related across them. The original settle.network was "without a blockchain" , settlenetwork.com is very much "with a blockchain" . Edit: The "settle.network" domain as it sits now…

Well, as I said, it's all "curious". Since the OP of this thread is in fact the owner of that repo (thus the README), possibly he can chime in and clear up the confusion. /g (I am just rubber necking here!)

Re: Decentralized trust graph for online value exchange without a blockchain (2017)

#39
post #3
post #2

>Conversely, cryptocurrencies such as Bitcoin or Ethereum have decentralized the process of issuing and managing a currency. But while the operations of such currencies, based on blockchains, have been fully decentralized, the trust graph of these cryptocurrencies have remained entirely centralized. Everyone need to trust Bitcoin to transact in Bitcoin, and everyone needs to trust Ethereum to transact in Ethereum or…

I think the idea of money as credit is very interesting (look at my HN comment history for my ramblings on the topic!). > I think the system described is interesting, but for regular human commerce purposes, I think the downsides of it (managing IOUs from many different parties, needing to have a trust-path between users that could steal from you, needing to keep a node online always or trust your money to someone el…

[deleted]

Re: Decentralized trust graph for online value exchange without a blockchain (2017)

#40
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure how you think governments could demand changes from major cryptos. They're not currently beholden to governments, and it seems unlikely they'll become more beholden as they grow larger . Volatility is ameliorated by stablecoins pegged to fiat currencies. Furthermore, the long-term goal is to not need an "interface to the real world", because you will be paid in crypto and you will pay for things in crypto. E…

A government could easily mandate block lists. All legitimate businesses dealing with cryptocurrencies would be required to not consider "blocked" coins as valid. I can even realistically envision broad support for such a change, when some "character" who is sufficiently evil becomes known (via non-stop media targeting I suspect) to be empowered by a certain cryptocurrency. I suppose there are some blockchains where…

Coinjoins and whirpooling bitcoin is becoming cheaper, easier, and more widely adopted...chain hopping is also becoming easier thanks to decentralized exchanges and atomic swaps. If the government wants to censor transactions they have to expend many times more energy than any person with a free wallet and 5-10 minutes. Enforcement becomes cost prohibitive as the network grows and more people use these tools.
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