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How Basecamp Blew Up

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Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#981

Post by paulddraper »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #135
Tainnor wrote: post #124

Honestly, in this story everyone looks like a big child. I would maybe be more sympathetic to DHH if it wasn't the guy who was so opinionated he pushed through Rails features that everyone else disliked or co-wrote several books on company culture that are glorified ads for basecamp (although "it doesn't have to be crazy at work" is still a thought-provoking read, at least in part). I can only imagine that he might b…

I've seen it happen in a company which was doing just fine. It happened randomly and completely out of the blue: one software engineer mentioned he didn't believe in the gender gap and he was promptly replied 1000 words essays by other leaders in the company shutting him down, to show that "we don't tolerate certain behaviour". Guidelines were created to avoid future political discussions in the workplace. No-one lef…

> I've seen it happen in a company which was doing just fine. It happened randomly and completely out of the blue: one software engineer mentioned he didn't believe in the gender gap

You don't have to leave it anonymous; I think most people know what Google is.

/s

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#982

Post by paulddraper »

otde wrote: post #463

Bit of a fool’s errand to try and avoid politics at work — like a fish trying to avoid water in the ocean. The ways companies are built and maintained, the relationship between employers and employees, workplace requirements and benefits — all of these are shaped by and and built from political systems, to say nothing of how politics surrounding a person’s identity might affect their worldview. You’re never going to…

> Bit of a fool’s errand to try and avoid politics at work

No?

Politics and religion: the two topics you avoid in professional settings. Over drinks? Sure. But not at work.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#983

Post by comte7092 »

throwaway789256 wrote: post #979
comte7092 wrote: post #978

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve made it clear that there is no evidence that can be brought forward that would get you to accept that there exists diffuse but consistent behavior that creates structural hierarchies within society. It would appear then, that we are at an impasse.

> there exists diffuse but consistent behavior I think that is possible and that one could prove it statistically. I do not think that, just because such behavior can be shown to exist on average, that is necessarily exists in specific situations. If you want to apply an anti-racist remedy in a specific situation, you should have to prove racism in that situation. And I think that the remedies to specific situations…

The company turned itself on its head by shutting down all discussion on the topic.

I haven’t seen any evidence that anyone was calling for singers job before nor during the meeting. All that happened was that a bunch of employees formed a committee that brought a bunch of issues to the fore. They took issue with singers behavior, and the company responded with “cease all of this discussion or take a buyout” and so they took the buyout.

All this amounted to the company backing up a senior employees behavior reflexively at the expense of lower level employees objections.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#984

Post by remram »

TheSisko wrote: post #969
JPKab wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you really don't get it. At my company that I was formally employed at before moving on to my current startup, we had a minority of employees very aggressively and vocally demanding that the CEO issue an anti-racism statement after the George Floyd murder. A statement was issue condemning what happened and racism. They were not satisfied with this and demanded that the exact words black lives matter be used and al…

> A statement was issue condemning what happened and racism. They were not satisfied with this and demanded that the exact words black lives matter be used and also that a donation to the BLM organization be made. It's weird that hold this case up as an example of unreasonable behavior on the employees part when in actuality their requests are extremely normal and reasonable.

Giving money yourself is one thing, or asking about a company match even. Asking that your company or anybody give their money towards any cause you care about is unreasonable.

In the absence of any specific connection to your business, there are plenty of worthy causes (race inequalities, but also gender inequalities, world hunger, ...) and you can't demand that your company (or any company) actively contribute to all of them lest they be called out for being anti-X.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#985

Post by paulddraper »

thrownaway564 wrote: post #181
Tainnor wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe. But this is (was) a 60-person company. That's about the size of the company I'm currently working at. In other words, you should know everyone and interact with a sizeable chunk of these people somewhat regularly. It strikes me as very odd that you would suddenly so fundamentally distrust your co-workers with whom you share so much. But I'm also not in the US and maybe this is just the current climate over the…

The culture here is getting bad. We have an "inclusion council" that hands out these diktats. The word ban list (not blacklist!) is approaching 100 words including husband, housekeeping, normal, hacker and meritocracy. Worse part is we're a security company edit: "here" is okta, not basecamp

> husband, housekeeping, normal, hacker and meritocracy

wtf

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#986

Post by paulddraper »

DanBC wrote: post #711
vxNsr wrote: post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is of course the worst take. When I was in 4th grade we had to read a short story about a society that enforced sameness, it wasn’t the giver where they did it genetically, rather if you were smart they’d fix headphones to your ears that played a loud obnoxious noise so you couldn’t think, if you were tall or athletic they crippled you, basically they brought everyone down to the same bad level... That’s the soc…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0113264/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0

2001: Most ridiculous thing I ever read.

2021: Uh...guys...?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#987

Post by paulddraper »

Threeve303 wrote: post #13

This story is so strange. First of all, it has been considered unprofessional to talk about politics at work for as long as I can remember. It's odd how you would need a rule implemented about that. Is this just a generational thing? On the other hand, when did racial equality become an inherently political topic? Especially racial equality inside the workplace. This also doesn't mean that the Basecamp founders are r…

> when did racial equality become an inherently political topic?

Since literally forever.

Like when wasn't it?

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#988

Post by subsaharancoder »

arp242 wrote: post #892
isr wrote: post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hating people for their ethnicity, or hating people for their religion - both seem to come from the same cesspool of ignorance and impotent rage (you're angry about something else, but resign yourself to picking on another group to vent on - much easier) Why do you feel the need to justify one over the other?

The difference is that religion is something you choose, whereas ethnicity is not. I can choose to be a Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic, or any other religion. I can't choose to be black or white, or Asian or European. Criticising people for their ethnicity is essentially always wrong. There is very little – if any – nuance that applies here. Criticising religion is a lot more nuanced though; for examp…

> Criticising religion is a lot more nuanced though; for example I don't think it's especially controversial to criticise Matthew 25, where Jesus says that "A woman a should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

1) Jesus did not say this, Paul an Apostle of Jesus Christ did. 2) This is not from Matthew 25 but from 1 Timothy 2:11-12 and is one of Paul's letters to Timothy. https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=1+Timothy+2%3A11-12 3) Matthew 25 consists of the parable of the ten virgins, parable of the tenants and the judgement of God. https://nasb.literalword.com/?q=Matthew+25

If you're going to use the Bible to make a point, at least make the effort to accurately do so.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#989

Post by nomdep »

andrewmd5 wrote: post #799
JPKab wrote: post #714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you really don't get it. At my company that I was formally employed at before moving on to my current startup, we had a minority of employees very aggressively and vocally demanding that the CEO issue an anti-racism statement after the George Floyd murder. A statement was issue condemning what happened and racism. They were not satisfied with this and demanded that the exact words black lives matter be used and al…

> I rarely see talented developers doing this because they're too busy working. I love the privilege on display here. You can ignore racial inequality issues because "they are too distracting," meanwhile I have to wake up each morning, read yet another one of my brothers and sisters has been killed by police, and I still have to run my business. Your mediocrity exist in your complacently to the status-quo. On a daily…

> meanwhile I have to wake up each morning, read yet another one of my brothers and sisters has been killed…

Unless they have the same parents, they are not your brothers and sisters more than OP is. Imagine an us-vs-then based on skin color is extremely racist and should be criticized.

Re: How Basecamp Blew Up

#990

Post by nomdep »

threeseed wrote: post #167
gowld wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird to criticize someone who wrote several books like "it doesn't have to be crazy at work" as "ads for basecamp" and then proceeded to run basecamp (his workplace) as a not-crazy environment. What else would you expect?

The idea that it is "his" workplace belongs in the Mad Men era of business. If you want to attract and keep talent you need to listen to their views and involve in them defining the values of the company.

Or not hire entitled and self-absorbed americans
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