Is there a name for when person A asks B and B thinks A has fallen victim to the XY probem but A really didn't and has indeed an unusual problem at their hands?
Yes, the name is "Stack Overflow".
The XY Problem (2014)
31–40 of 111 posts
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#32The worst XY problem is knowing you want to do Y, even if its strange or whatever, asking how to do it, and people asking you "why do Y? Do X instead". Happens all the time in Stack Overflow. Just answer the fucking question, and then give the lecture on why you think it should be done that way, or why it shouldn't be done at all...
There are a few people who frequently have this complaint, but I don't think it's a real problem. If you actually need to do Y in a situation where most people who think they need to do Y are wrong, it's not everyone else's responsibility to divine that you are the magical case. It's your responsibility to demonstrate that you actually do know what you're doing. This isn't something you do by discussing how unfair ot…
This happens all the time, and no, not only in super exceptional special cases. Ask how to change the spark plugs on a Lotus. Nobody has a freaking clue, but their neighbor told them Lotus is unreliable, so you get half a dozen yahoos replying "you should buy a Toyota, it's more reliable." Thanks, geniuses, but I already have a reliable car, I also happen to like playing with my Lotus, which I did not purchase because I was tricked into believing it was a great value. I feel I should not need to provide a full inventory of my garage and driving habits to ask a basic question.
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#33Also known as the "I don't know the answer to your question, but here's an answer to a different question so I can look smart" problem.
That's not my experience. A lot of the time there is a VERY straightforward answer, e.g. "here's this evil metaprogramming thing" or "here's where you access this legacy representation with bitey cornercases" or whatever, which is trivial to provide (but also harmful).
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#34When somebody asks me a question, I find it best to answer their question directly (because maybe I don't understand their situation as well as they do), and then give them the information that I think they actually need (because maybe they're asking the wrong question).
What I find very frustrating is when I ask a question, and get an "answer" that doesn't actually answer my question.
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#35Is there a name for when person A asks B and B thinks A has fallen victim to the XY probem but A really didn't and has indeed an unusual problem at their hands?
[deleted]
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
You have to consider that SO exists not only to answer your specific problem, but also to help other users who might face a similar problem. In that context, it might be helpful to mention, if you are the asking person, include the details why you cannot do X, if you know you can't; or, if your question doesn't include details about your specific circumstance, answers that mention that common solution is to do X inst…
>but also to help other users who might face a similar problem They could ask their own questions. I'd rather have a database of specific questions with specific answers than "X-Ys" all over the place.
Your question, without explanation why you want to do Y, when obvious way is to do X, is then not specific enough to people who have XY problem and are not aware of it.
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#37The worst XY problem is knowing you want to do Y, even if its strange or whatever, asking how to do it, and people asking you "why do Y? Do X instead". Happens all the time in Stack Overflow. Just answer the fucking question, and then give the lecture on why you think it should be done that way, or why it shouldn't be done at all...
There are a few people who frequently have this complaint, but I don't think it's a real problem. If you actually need to do Y in a situation where most people who think they need to do Y are wrong, it's not everyone else's responsibility to divine that you are the magical case. It's your responsibility to demonstrate that you actually do know what you're doing. This isn't something you do by discussing how unfair ot…
That sounds great in theory, but in practice you end up having this enormous, long list of "defenses" as to why it isn't an XY problem, and then ... people will ignore them anyway. This has happened to me on Hacker News.
People hit that XY button more than needed, and I have seen this even in the earliest days of Linux. I remember, pre-Google, when asking some questions on IRC about recompiling the kernel for my distro, I would get smart-ass responses like "What you should have done is selected this other distro."
It's led to me rarely asking questions if I think the issue could be construed as XY.
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#38I find it strange that some people get offended with this approach to problem solving. There is this legendary interview question, "I have a mountain in India and I want to move it in France, how do I do it?". And some questioners (presumably people who like to be authoritative, in charge and order people around), really seem to dislike if my first impulse is to ask "Why do you want to do that? What is your goal?" And they respond with something like, "Why does it matter, just get on with the task, I didn't hire you to ask questions!"
Because the method really does depend on what you want to do. Can I destroy the mountain? Do I have to recreate the geological structure, or is it the biosphere you're interested in, or perhaps there is a holy place on that mountain that is important? And so on. If you want me to think outside the box (and presumably the question is posed to test that skill), then you have to be willing to provide more details on what you ultimately want.
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#39The XY approach can be perfectly legitimate. You're a domain expert. You have a problem X. It's a standard problem in your domain but only you can really understand it. However, you can see that a general purpose approach, Y, could solve it. Y might even sound complicated but is at least fully explainable whereas X isn't easily explainable at all.
Of course, the "XY problem" usually presumes a naive person ("user")who falsely imagines the more complicated-sounding solution Y would solve their simple problem. And that's a pretty common situation.
The general approach for all this stuff is whenever someone is asking for the solution to a complicated or weird question, just verify they have some reason to approach it that way. There's no reason to automatically assume either they do or they don't and not assuming anything lets you approach them more respectfully.
Re: The XY Problem (2014)
#40The worst XY problem is knowing you want to do Y, even if its strange or whatever, asking how to do it, and people asking you "why do Y? Do X instead". Happens all the time in Stack Overflow. Just answer the fucking question, and then give the lecture on why you think it should be done that way, or why it shouldn't be done at all...
I get these types of questions from time to time, and the way it usually goes is:
them: how can I do Y?
me: you can do A, but you're probably going to run into B, I'd recommend doing C instead because D
them: ok, well, I'm already too committed to Y, so I'm going w/ A. Thanks!
them, later: hey, I ran into B. Can you help me?
me: ...
At that point, I just accept that sometimes people need to get burned to learn their lesson.
There are also cases where people ask how to do Y, but explain that it's not an XY problem because such and such reasons. These often actually turn into stimulating conversations because now you're in brainstorming territory and it's clear that the conversation is about procuring novel solutions.