Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Java's records, Lombok's data, and Kotlin's data classes

nipafx.dev

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 294 posts

Re: Java's records, Lombok's data, and Kotlin's data classes

#71

Post by Misdicorl »

smoldesu wrote: post #68

This might qualify as low-grade threadjacking, so I apologize if this is off topic, but who's actually using Java these days? Most devs I know avoid it like the plague, and only use it to maintain legacy codebases or get CS qualifications. Are there any real advantages to using Java in 2021, besides it's mature community/ecosystem/tooling?

> besides it's mature community/ecosystem/tooling

Thats the answer. And its a really good one.

The only other languages with the same or better breadth and depth have their own reasons to avoid them like the plague (e.g. C/C++ footguns, difficulty managing large-ish codebases without types)

Re: Java's records, Lombok's data, and Kotlin's data classes

#72

Post by haolez »

smoldesu wrote: post #68

This might qualify as low-grade threadjacking, so I apologize if this is off topic, but who's actually using Java these days? Most devs I know avoid it like the plague, and only use it to maintain legacy codebases or get CS qualifications. Are there any real advantages to using Java in 2021, besides it's mature community/ecosystem/tooling?

It's a language that protects your investment. There is a lot of effort in backwards compatibility and the language puts a lot of constraints in the devs so that the development moves slowly, but in a sustainable manner.

This is the best case scenario, of course. But it's an argument that I see being used in new Java projects.

Re: Java's records, Lombok's data, and Kotlin's data classes

#73

Post by AtNightWeCode »

Not sure why immutable data structures have surfaced as something important. Typically you never change fields so it is kind of only of academic value if a field in a POD, POJO, POCO or whatever it is called in the specific language actually may change.

Re: Java's records, Lombok's data, and Kotlin's data classes

#74

Post by diab0lic »

smoldesu wrote: post #68

This might qualify as low-grade threadjacking, so I apologize if this is off topic, but who's actually using Java these days? Most devs I know avoid it like the plague, and only use it to maintain legacy codebases or get CS qualifications. Are there any real advantages to using Java in 2021, besides it's mature community/ecosystem/tooling?

A large chunk of the Netflix backend runs on the JVM. Much of it written in Java. While I agree that many devs avoid it like the plague, and I used to be one of them, once I let go of attachments to programming languages I found it quite a pleasant experience to develop software using Java.

Basically using Lombok and Vavr give you a very nice lightweight functional experience. Bells and whistles tend to be a distraction from making software that works and scales. I’d way rather focus on the hard problems in computing than how to most idiomatically or elegantly express things in a language.

Re: Java's records, Lombok's data, and Kotlin's data classes

#75

Post by dtech »

shagie wrote: post #57
iainmerrick wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re technically correct that this stuff is all possible in principle, but the answer in practice right now is “no”.

From the link about GraalVM: > Something that Graal can do that C2 cannot, and a key advantage of GraalVM, is partial escape analysis. Instead of determining a binary value of whether an object escapes the compilation unit or not, this can determine on which branches an object escapes it, and move allocation of the object to only those branches where it escapes. And from https://docs.oracle.com/en/java/javase/11/vm/j…

GraalVM is excellent in performing escape analysis on objects on the call stack, but it does not prevent the pointer overhead that a JVM array-of-heap-object-references has vs an array-of-structs that e.g. .NET supports [2].

Theoretically it could do hat, but that's just the classic "sufficient smart compiler" strawman [1]

[1] https://wiki.c2.com/?SufficientlySmartCompiler

[2] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/29665748/memory-allocati...

Re: Java's records, Lombok's data, and Kotlin's data classes

#76

Post by villasv »

Misdicorl wrote: post #71
smoldesu wrote: post #68

This might qualify as low-grade threadjacking, so I apologize if this is off topic, but who's actually using Java these days? Most devs I know avoid it like the plague, and only use it to maintain legacy codebases or get CS qualifications. Are there any real advantages to using Java in 2021, besides it's mature community/ecosystem/tooling?

> besides it's mature community/ecosystem/tooling Thats the answer. And its a really good one. The only other languages with the same or better breadth and depth have their own reasons to avoid them like the plague (e.g. C/C++ footguns, difficulty managing large-ish codebases without types)

IKR. The question framing is almost like: is there any other reason to use Java except all the most important and good reasons?

Re: Java's records, Lombok's data, and Kotlin's data classes

#77

Post by ramblerman »

AtNightWeCode wrote: post #73

Not sure why immutable data structures have surfaced as something important. Typically you never change fields so it is kind of only of academic value if a field in a POD, POJO, POCO or whatever it is called in the specific language actually may change.

> so it is kind of only of academic value if a field in a POD, POJO, POCO or whatever it is called in the specific language actually may change.

I'm not sure if you've debugged much, or inherited any large legacy projects, but knowing it is immutable vs "typically it isn't" is a pretty big distinction in that moment.

Re: Java's records, Lombok's data, and Kotlin's data classes

#78

Post by razzm256 »

AtNightWeCode wrote: post #73

Not sure why immutable data structures have surfaced as something important. Typically you never change fields so it is kind of only of academic value if a field in a POD, POJO, POCO or whatever it is called in the specific language actually may change.

There are many good things enabled by immutability, like safer/easier multithreading, value-like semantics for objects. It is definitely not only of academic value.

Re: Java's records, Lombok's data, and Kotlin's data classes

#79

Post by bob1029 »

smoldesu wrote: post #68

This might qualify as low-grade threadjacking, so I apologize if this is off topic, but who's actually using Java these days? Most devs I know avoid it like the plague, and only use it to maintain legacy codebases or get CS qualifications. Are there any real advantages to using Java in 2021, besides it's mature community/ecosystem/tooling?

If C# didn't exist, we would certainly be a Java shop. Not only because of the ecosystem & tooling, but also because it is a language that has historically proven its ability to model incredibly complex business domains as well as support mission critical workloads without falling over on itself.

Re: Java's records, Lombok's data, and Kotlin's data classes

#80

Post by autodidacticon »

smoldesu wrote: post #68

This might qualify as low-grade threadjacking, so I apologize if this is off topic, but who's actually using Java these days? Most devs I know avoid it like the plague, and only use it to maintain legacy codebases or get CS qualifications. Are there any real advantages to using Java in 2021, besides it's mature community/ecosystem/tooling?

It would seem that the world of data engineering is largely dominated by Java.
Post reply on HN