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Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

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Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#711
post #696

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a complicated topic, with multiple responses, but I'm only going to touch on one specific aspect of it. Reducing violence in regular farming is an admirable goal that people should strive towards. It's also worth talking about the environmental costs of ingredients like palm oil, and it's worth talking about the human costs of products like cocoa. I don't mean to diminish any of that at all, it's all worth pa…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Interested in elaborating?

Factory farming is where the majority of our meat comes from, and I've seen no evidence that direct crop farming would result in more small animal lives lost than the meat industry in its current form. I also see little to no evidence that efforts to reform the meat industry are likely to succeed, the "ethical meat" movement is smaller than the vegetarian movement by most measures I can find, and far more susceptible to marketing lies (cage free eggs are not particularly much of an improvement over caged).

If you want to personally find a local butcher where you look your cow in its satisfied, well-lived eyes before it dies, and you want to argue with people about their ingredient supply chain every time you eat out or buy a frozen dinner or go to an office party, then fine, you do you. But I think it's somewhat naive to argue that's a model that can realistically work for most people. For the majority of consumers, vegetarianism would be both less expensive and less difficult.

And I just think it's strictly inaccurate to say that small animal deaths would increase if the meat industry in its current form went away. I don't see any evidence of that, not enough cattle/chicken/beef is raised on grass to make that a realistic claim.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#712
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not unless worldwide (and particularly US) total meat and dairy consumption drops precipitously.

Right, but "Let's not eat any animals at all ever" is a different target than "Let's raise and kill animals in a way that's ecologically sustainable and humane". I'd argue that working towards #1 is actively working against #2. The other factor that I don't quite get about think-of-the-animals vegans is this: What exactly do you think is going to happen to all those cows and chickens if the entire world becomes veget…

My own view is that grazing animals (cows, sheep, goats) are an excellent thing to have when you have land where human-relevant nutrition won't grow. Those sheep wandering the Scottish (and Welsh, and Lake District) hillsides, eating some of the fairly few plants that will grow in that soil (and climate) is a fairly smart thing to do (given a high level of control, given the total reshaping of those landscapes caused by overgrazing in past).

Same thing with cows and goats in other parts of the world, where they (somehow) do OK munching on plants that grow where the stuff we'd eat will not (similar concerns about overgrazing, shit production and soil damage).

It's also true of small-scale poultry production, though my impression is that you need pretty high quality soil conditions and plants to grow chickens without supplementary food.

That's a far cry from anything we have now, and tends to imply a reduction in meat consumption on a level that I don't think many Americans (and perhaps quite a few Europeans) would currently endorse.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#713

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait then why do literally none of the staunch vegan people I know look like this? And why does the American Dietetic Association officially state that a vegan diet is completely fine for all stages of life?

> Wait then why do literally none of the staunch vegan people I know look like this? Maybe your are lying or in denial? I have first hand experience with the cult like properties of the vegan movement. It's very clear from how ex-vegans - people how really tried to embrace veganism, but had to quit because of health issues - are harassed by current vegans, any criticism of the movement cannot be tolerated and ex-vega…

Do you have any proof that lobbyism is the cause? Or are you just saying that?

Also would you be interested in having a zoom call with me, or some other vegans, to see that we don’t at all look unhealthy? We can clear this up very quickly, I think.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#714

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a riddle for you: if seed oils were not toxic, why are mice given seed oils as low as 4-5% of calories in order to cause cancer in the presence of other carcinogens? They don't get cancer with the carcinogens alone, they have to add the seed oils to trigger the cancers.

20g of flaxseed oil (180kcal) contains a bunch of ALA, pick a massively low conversion ration to DHA/EPA of 0.5% or 1% or whatever, and you'll see that you'll get very near if not over the recommended daily amounts of 250-750mg.

[deleted]

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#715
post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is not an argument that fairs well on HN in general, but the fact that we can eat something this similar to a burger but without the slaughter of living, feeling, individual being is so unbelievably important and incredible. The problem I have with this argument is that it always seems to me to focus on the life of the animal, but not on the death of the animal. All animals eventually die, and most natural dea…

I think you could make the argument that it's possible to ethically raise animals in a way where it's a good deal for both sides, as long as an animal suffers less than it would suffer in nature. If causing unnecessary suffering is unethical, then the opposite should be a moral imperative, so this simple mathematical argument leads to the conclusion that ethically raising animals should be morally superior to veganis…

Could we not apply this to raising humans on farms for organs, and killing them at 25?

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#716
post #694

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't have words for it but if you've met shelter dogs or animals that have suffered abuse, they definitely understand the concept of evil. I have a rescue pig that I adore but he doesn't trust men because he lived a life of abuse. I can only assume that he sees men as evil, even if he can't make that statement. Some things are just natural. Humans seem to think we have a superior understanding of all things but…

Your example of evil just seems like the animals having a sense of danger to me. Animals usually instinctively will try to avoid danger. This doesn't require them to have a concept of evil.

What's your definition of evil? If an animal finds a specific set of traits to be characteristic of something that's dangerous and/or likely to inflict harm, is that not the definition of evil?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/evil

We wrote these things down so that we describe them to each other. The concepts already existed. We didn't invent evil, we defined it but it was already there. We've also used arguments like this to separate ourselves from what consider be lesser, to distance us from our actions. This is mental gymnastics though.

Whatever you have to do to feel ok about eating a chicken is fine but pretending we have some better sense of self than anything else feels like hubris. If our position in the world is truly better because we can articulate out feelings and we're smarter, why don't we eat dogs and mutes and the mentally handicapped?

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure hints would be good and much appreciated! When you say "our diet doesn't look like a herbivore/fruit eater at all", I see tables like this [1] and it would strongly suggest the opposite. Maybe it's propaganda... I don't know, I should like to see something like a ScienceBrief on it. In terms of the last thing you said. You phrased it as "australopithecus ate meat"; it seems they predominantly were herbivorous ac…

Re: human digestion, this comparison of human digestive tract vs other animals https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David-Bravo-10/publicat... I didn't mean to imply that australopitecus was predominantly carnivorous, but I recently found out they had tools for hunting and/or cutting flesh, just to make a point that the trend started much earlier than homo sapiens. Might come back with more links/thoughts later

Yes, thank you for this! Well more the paper behind the picture. This is much more interesting stuff.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#718
post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Cattle grazing causes less animal death than industrial plant agriculture (land clearing, pest control, insecticide usage, etc.). Even grass fed beef are fed fodder which is the result of industrial plant agriculture. >No they don't. Healthy vegans are few and far between. Yes they do. Healthy vegans are way more common than you think. There is nothing unique about meat that can't be obtained from plant-based foods.

> Yes they do. Healthy vegans are way more common than you think. There is nothing unique about meat that can't be obtained from plant-based foods. You can easily check if a vegan is actually following a vegan diet without cheating, because after a few years they will develop the sunken eyes and hollow collarbones, definitely not looking healthy.

You've already decided that any healthy vegan must be cheating - there is no way to have a productive conversation with you about this.

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#719
post #622

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct me if I'm wrong but that agricultural impact happens for vegetarian food as well? And lab grown meat also requires the same agricultural costs, there doesn't exist some magic chemistry that creates food from raw materials without agriculture.

I updated my post with some details, but to that point directly it is far, far more efficient to feed people rather than feeding animals to feed people. The vast majority of cattle are raised in feedlots and fed crops from agriculture.

Grains make up 10–13 percent of the diet for cattle, globally. The rest is composed of grass, leaves, and "crop residue" such as cornstalks.

Source: Sacred Cow by Rodgers

Re: Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

#720

While it is not my experience at all, I understand that some folks have certain negative opinions of Beyond Burgers, and other fake meat/imitation burgers: - The texture is off - Maybe they cook strangely - Potentially less taste But the most important thing about them, and the reason I urge everyone to at least _try_ Beyond Burgers, is they require no violence against animals. This is not an argument that fairs well…

I ended up becoming vegetarian for a while due to some video that was released years ago of factory farm workers abusing animals. I found myself unable to eat meat without bursting into tears. In time, and in part due to how complicated this ecosystem actually is (as explained by a few other replies here) I ended up settling on eating vegetarian “most of the time” and buying meat sourced from ethical places with bett…

> I won’t turn this into a political debate with my theories why, but nonetheless most of my circle of friends are animal lovers and I would have expected some degree of empathy with my cause, but most of them acted like I was personally going to sneak into their house and steal all their meat from them.

When I've witnessed these debates they're much like 2a. A vegetarian uses some moralizing and hyperbolic language to express how deeply they care about a cause and people either feel threatened or insulted by the language.

To frame that even more concisely, it's like when pro-life people use moralizing and hyperbolic language about abortions in front of people that believe in them or have had one.

My general takeaway from watching these issues is that moralizing, hyperbolic language or other subtle uses of shame, guilt, etc do not yield good results and often create backlash in response to the strength and travel that that kind of rhetoric has. Basically, we need to get better about how we talk about those issues if they're to be considered at all.

Another common theme is usually one side in this debate has some camp within it's interest that is advocating for cancellation, and if you're not actively talking down cancellation both internally and externally to your interest group then you are perceived as showing by proxy approval via inaction.

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