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The origin of Covid: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box?

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Re: The origin of Covid: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box?

#401

Post by newacct583 »

AzzieElbab wrote: post #367
newacct583 wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying that Rogin reported that Anthony Fauci "covertly funded gain of function research", and that this fact (which constitutes an absolute blockbuster story) wasn't reported or corroborated anywhere in journalism, by an author who's everywhere in print and on TV but who somehow never said this in public, and the only linkable source is a podcast? Yeah, this didn't happen.

this is fascinating. Rogin is making the claim right before your eyes and your conclusion is that he doesn't mean it because he never printed it?

He's literally not. I don't have the book, your other link is a podcast. And (this is the really important part) literally no one else, not even Breitbart or conservative link farms who would slurp this up like candy, is reporting that Rogin said it.

So I choose to believe that you're just wrong about what he said. Again, Fauci covertly directing funds to an area of research that the medical community has recognized as ethically problematic for decades would be huge news. And all you have is a podcast? Seriously?

Re: The origin of Covid: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box?

#402

Post by strogonoff »

Dah00n wrote: post #171
strogonoff wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with COVID is the precedent of attempts of trying to identify the origin of this new disease being sabotaged for seemingly political reasons (and with no obvious repercussions). It seems intuitive that knowing the origin of the virus (sample escaping a lab or pure nature) could help prevent similar cases in the future or deal with them more efficiently. Is my intuition wrong here?

I can't read from your comment if you are talking about the PRC or the US political meddling. Given that both sides are as likely to do this for easy brownie points I don't think it matters as we will never have the correct answer: People in the US will at most be told one side while people in the PRC will be told the other. In the end it's just two sides throwing turds, like most politics.

I think it is really fairly clear that CCP is the side that prevented WHO team from conducting a thorough investigation at suspected ground zero.

Re: The origin of Covid: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box?

#403

Post by briandear »

> From early on, public and media perceptions were shaped in favor of the natural emergence scenario by strong statements from two scientific groups. These statements were not at first examined as critically as they should have been.

The propaganda from the CCP played a major part of that “shaping.” It’s critical that the influence of the CCP on the head of the WHO not be ignored. Reporters seem to ignore the potential conflict of interest given that the WHO head was the former foreign minister of Ethiopia and oversaw billions in Chinese investment in that country. It’s not inconceivable that he was personally enriched with Chinese money during his days overseeing the Chinese “investment.”

Re: The origin of Covid: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box?

#404

Post by maybelsyrup »

caseysoftware wrote: post #390

I think the media successfully conflated four separate questions: a) Did it form in nature or in a lab? b) Did it become more communicable via nature or via the lab? c) Did it make it to humans through nature (or wet market) or via the lab? d) If it came from the lab was it on purpose or an accident? as simply "OMG IT CAME FROM A LAB" and then claimed it's all a conspiracy theory. The media as a whole shot themselves…

> The media as a whole shot themselves in the foot on this one

I don't have any evidence of this, but I don't think it was as accidental as shooting yourself in the foot. Media people know what they're doing.

Re: The origin of Covid: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box?

#405

Post by billfor »

gonehome wrote: post #326
followtheplot wrote: post #294

"... proponents of lab escape can explain all the available facts about SARS2 considerably more easily than can those who favor natural emergence." "The natural emergence theory battles a bristling array of implausibilities." This is a fantastic article, but amazingly almost all of it is year-old news. Most of this was known in March 2020, and nearly all of it by the end of 2020. How does it take so long for the trut…

What bothers me about it is not only did it take a long time for the “truth to win”, but mainstream media orgs actively suppressed it because of tribal stupidity. It was used as an example of “fake news”: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/02/technology/biden-reality-... > “ Hoaxes, lies and collective delusions aren’t new, but the extent to which millions of Americans have embraced them may be. Thirty percent of Republ…

It would be helpful if the people that downvoted your post would explain why they did so.

Re: The origin of Covid: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box?

#406

Post by trompetenaccoun »

throwaway210222 wrote: post #366
thepasswordis wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even amateur OSINT people in the US were making the (imo obvious) connection between WIV and what at that time was called the wuhan flu. What is the likelihood that a novel SARS virus happens to emerge in the same major metropolitan area that also happens to host a BSL4 lab, which happens to be in a couple try with a long history of labs leaking SARS viruses?

> What is the likelihood that a novel SARS virus happens to emerge in the same major metropolitan area that also happens to host a BSL4 lab, You have the causality the wrong way around. The lab is there [Wuhan] because that is where the coronaviruses reservoirs are.

Lots of Yunnanese bats in Hubei. Who doesn't know the famous caves of downtown Wuhan where they congregate every evening.

Re: The origin of Covid: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box?

#407

Post by tnzm »

caseysoftware wrote: post #390

I think the media successfully conflated four separate questions: a) Did it form in nature or in a lab? b) Did it become more communicable via nature or via the lab? c) Did it make it to humans through nature (or wet market) or via the lab? d) If it came from the lab was it on purpose or an accident? as simply "OMG IT CAME FROM A LAB" and then claimed it's all a conspiracy theory. The media as a whole shot themselves…

It's less "shot themselves in the foot" and more "broke our legs". Mass media's entire function has been reduced to hobbling public discourse.

Re: The origin of Covid: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box?

#408

Post by wonderwonder »

zpeti wrote: post #356
gonehome wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What bothers me about it is not only did it take a long time for the “truth to win”, but mainstream media orgs actively suppressed it because of tribal stupidity. It was used as an example of “fake news”: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/02/02/technology/biden-reality-... > “ Hoaxes, lies and collective delusions aren’t new, but the extent to which millions of Americans have embraced them may be. Thirty percent of Republ…

Amazingly succinct post. However I think the CCP are overplaying their hand now. They are doing too much too fast too aggressively. Hong kong, NBA, now going after Australia. It's going to backfire IMO. Especially if you start to think about non first world countries. What's india going to do once they're massive covid wave is over? Is it going to improve india-china relations? You are going to have 1bn people with a…

I dont think it is going to backfire, I think everything is going exactly as they want it to go. Look at what is happening to the Uighurs. They are actively running concentration camps for millions of people and governments have for the most part just shrugged their shoulders. This is a massive boost to the Chinese as they now know they can get away with massive human rights violations with no consequences. Their airforce and navy is modernizing at a fantastic pace while the US has sunk a trillion into what for all purposes appears to be a dud in the JSF. They have the new silk road initiative under way, have built massive influence in Africa and are essentially claiming the entire south china sea for themselves. The Hong Kong situation is close to resolved and the only thing the world did was watch a few youtube videos or maybe wear a slogan on a tshirt. The next time there is an isolationist US president they will likely take Taiwan. They have all the time in the world.

Re: The origin of Covid: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box?

#409

Post by IIAOPSW »

followtheplot wrote: post #294

"... proponents of lab escape can explain all the available facts about SARS2 considerably more easily than can those who favor natural emergence." "The natural emergence theory battles a bristling array of implausibilities." This is a fantastic article, but amazingly almost all of it is year-old news. Most of this was known in March 2020, and nearly all of it by the end of 2020. How does it take so long for the trut…

Below the surface level question of "did it escape a lab" is the question of why that matters to people. Both escaping a lab and evolving naturally in the wild are in essence freak accidents. A roll of the cosmic dice. A bristling array of implausibilities. What difference does it make that we got unlucky in this way as opposed to that way?

Would the logical conclusion from the "escaped a lab" theory be that China shouldn't be allowed to have virology research? Should any nation? Who gets to decide? Exactly what actionable conclusion depends on knowing if the origin of the virus was a lab or not?

There are maybe one in a dozen proponents of the lab theory that are legitimately interested in these questions. For the remaining 11 out of 12, the Wuhan Lab theory is just a belief that they wear in public to signal "China bad". An alarming number of people think China created the virus and released it on purpose. I once heard someone say China released the virus just to prove that our healthcare system is bad. Let me highlight the absurdity here. This person believes China engineered a virus and then released it on their own people in a city most foreigners were unaware of so that it would eventually make it to the US. They did all this just to prove some politically left point about socialized healthcare. That's not a real belief about how the world works. That's thinly veiled "I hate liberals and China".

Most of these people are trying to reach a conclusion that the world should punish China with sanctions or (in extreme cases) war. More than a few of them are using the lab theory as a fig leaf over blatant racism. There's a huge overlap between people who believe the lab theory and people who insist on calling it the "China virus" or "Wuhan Flu". That's not a coincidence. In short, the majority of the people agreeing with your theory aren't actually on your side. When you say "How does it take so long for the truth to win?", they have a very different idea of what "the truth" means.

Don't give them legitimacy or talking points. Being honest about the lab theory in the face of people who will use your words dishonestly is a fools errand. Don't be the fool who thinks he can be nuanced enough to pull it off. Until you know you are talking with someone who cares about the lab theory for the right reasons, the correct thing to say is "it absolutely evolved naturally and did not escape a lab".

Re: The origin of Covid: Did people or nature open Pandora’s box?

#410

Post by tomjen3 »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #378
tomjen3 wrote: post #364

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is least likely? A group of scientists in a quasy communist country do a shit job of safety and end up endangering the worlds population or that a virus that coexists with Bats, somehow and for no (direct) evolutionary benefit, becomes able to infect humans?

Uh, infecting a new type of organism is a pretty big evolutionary benefit though? Saying there is no benefit is like saying there is no benefit for people people who switch jobs just so they get paid more.

It is, on the whole, but not immediately. It is kinda like the idea that while having eyes is a huge evolutionary benefit, having just part of the eye confers none. Or like guessing a password by random chance. If you get some immediate feedback by being partially right then it is pretty easy, but if you only know if the password is right or wrong, then the odds of guessing the password rounds to zero.
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